Yet another thread about HOTD batch carbonation

I've seen tons of posts and reviews on this site and others that Batch 88 of Fred was flat.

But I have yet to see any response by the brewers to this problem. Usually when a brewer has a problem, they attempt an explanation and/or remedy. But I haven't found this yet.

I've had Fred before. But last summer, my parents visited Oregon and brought back two bottles of Fred. Both batch 88 and both flatter than any tire I've ever seen or beer I've ever had. Even flatter than the bad batch of Angel's Share Lost Abbey had three years ago (which they acknowledged and remedied).

 

that sucks. contact hair of the dog... hopefully alan won't give you any bullshit about how bottle conditioning is magic. 88 batches in you should know how much priming sugar to put in and what your yeast can tolerate.

(this not coming from a hotd hater either; i loved every hotd beer i've ever had)

 

There was a response. If you search for thread titles with "HOTD carbonation" you'll find it. I think it's safe to say that Pahn will not like what was quoted as the brewery response.

 

yeah, sounds like he's repeating the same bullshit from a few years ago.

alan sprints is a brilliant brewer, but the beer world is, these days, too big and educated to spew patronizing bullshit about bottle conditioning being a dice roll. it just isn't. it's one thing if he can't carbonate a 15% ABV beer that sat in barrels for 2 years... it's another if he doesn't know how much priming sugar to put in his flagship. it's downright weird, and it's bizarre that he says these "bottle conditioning doesn't always work," mumbo-jumbo smokescreens for non-brewers and slaps-in-the-face for people who even the smallest experience with the process.

 

one thing i'd add that i raised as a possible point before, and pretty much feel like it get's laughed at. to me it looks like maybe the local distributor here (SAN FRANCISCO) seems to be a common link. my fudged up case of Adam was purchased in San Francisco. at the same time i had my issue, another BA member from Texas posted a video of his similar experience. when i contacted him & investigated further, it turned out he had purchased his bottles from a shop in SF. i happen to know the owner & hit him up - at the time he informed me he was so pissed off with repeated undrinkable cases from HotD & Morrison's lack of response to the matter he discontinued carrying HotD's products altogether. i believe he does carry them again now but anyhoo,,, i was suspicious my case saw too much heat somewhere in the distribution chain.

the reason i question the distributor is because that's not the only case of beer i've had issues with where it appears to be limited to individual/specific cases, rather than entire batches. the 3 cases i've had issue with were all from the same local distributor. based on my limited experience, i'd say HotD's product is known to be erratic but i suspect how product is handled after leaving the brewery might be as significant a culprit in the overall issue. 02¢

 

There is no amount of heat stress or abuse in transit or storage (shy of actually prying the caps off) that could cause a properly carbonated beer to go flat. These issues rest entirely on the brewery's shoulders.

 

This is the problem. I have to temper my response, so as not to come across as unfair, but HOTD has super significant QC issues IMO.

Passing off legitimate flaws in a beer as some sort of charming batch variation is nonsense. They knew that the last bottling of Bourbon Fred was flat when it was bottled, or that batch 88 and 90 Fred were also flat. Why not say so prior to the release? Their website is more than organized enough to put some notations about particular batch releases.

The problem is that there is no way to know at the time your buying it. You take it home, open it up, sometimes months or years later when there is no other recourse besides the brewery, and if you don't like the surprise of still or off beer, deal with it. I just don't find it to be particularly palatable when a brewery says "we knew, even before we bottled that beer, that it wouldn't be what you thought you were buying, but if you didn't enjoy it, that's your problem."

If their "beer is more than bubbles" stance were legit, why not put up on the website: "Batch 88 Fred will be released next week, just for your information it did not carb, but we feel it is still up to par, so please enjoy!!"

My guess is that they dont feel like Batch 88 would sell if they did that. So they don't. Instead, they leave people to find out after the purchase and then tell them to deal with it. Crappy business practice in my opinion.

 

Firstly I think that Hair of the Dog is one of the greatest breweries in the world. Adam from the Wood is a work of genius. With one exception, all of the HotD beers I have had have been spectacular. Alan & his wife seems like super people when I met them.


Saying “Bottle Conditioning creates uneven results, especially with high alcohol Beers.” as a response to questions about why you keep selling flat beers is pure nonsense. There are dozens & dozens of Breweries in Belgium making bottle conditioned beers of high ABV. Even with mediocre breweries, carbonation should always be there, period. This is the 21st century, brewing is no longer a mater of just doing stuff & hoping that things will work out. These things are correctable. Blaming it on bottle conditioning is ridiculous.

 

Firstly I think that Hair of the Dog is one of the greatest breweries in the world. Adam from the Wood is a work of genius. With one exception, all of the HotD beers I have had have been spectacular. Alan & his wife seems like super people when I met them.

Saying “Bottle Conditioning creates uneven results, especially with high alcohol Beers.” as a response to questions about why you keep selling flat beers is pure nonsense. There are dozens & dozens of Breweries in Belgium making bottle conditioned beers of high ABV. Even with mediocre breweries, carbonation should always be there, period. This is the 21st century, brewing is no longer a mater of just doing stuff & hoping that things will work out. These things are correctable. Blaming it on bottle conditioning is ridiculous.

 

I seem to remember that they did say Bourbon Fred lacked carbonation which is why it was priced lower than usual. I agree though that this doesn't help when somebody just walks in and buys one as they don't mention after the initial release.

 

a couple of things, mine were Adam & the batch number is slightly lower than the Fred batch discussed, the other guy from Texas had the same Adam batch - ours are/were the complete opposite of flat. poured gently as hell you got a glass of 97% foam 3% liquid. poured normal, you got a glass full of foam after pouring an ounce.

i tend to think you are right about the carbonation, BUT i bet if you get a heat situation right whereas it somehow loosens the seal of the cap, i think you might be wrong about it being able to cause the beer to go flat. the lone bottle i came across from my case thus far that wasn't over-carbonated was completely flat, and i noticed the cap came off fairly easy by comparison to bottles i usually open. i try not to destroy caps when i remove them and will gently go around the perimeter. that usually takes at least 2 but usually at least 3 prying points. this one the cap slid off after barely prying at the 1st point.

in the meantime if you look at other issues in the same time span, members complained about exploding HotD bottles. i assume those were also over-carbonated bottles whereas the cap never gave & eventually the glass itself blew - or no? do you think heat could possibly agitate or accelerate some of the bottle condition agents & possibly make things worse?

 

agree. and why not upgrade the actual bottles? if you want to bottle condition your beers, then do it right, which would involve getting denser glass and possibly corking. i may be wrong on this, but i'm assuming they undercarb their beers because they are worried about the beers becoming bombs.

 

Sounds to me like some bottles had priming sugar that should have been in other bottles. More sugar -> more refermentation -> more pressure -> explosion. Less sugar -> yeast never get started -> don't eat up what little there is there to ferment -> no carbonation.

But really, who knows? If someone this professional is using a method of distributing sugar to bottles that fails to carbonate half the batch, something is wrong. He needs to try again.

 

i had assumed the issue with mine was more a matter of them trying to get it right based on prior complaints about under carbonation. i.e. they overcompensated for prior issues. hadn't considered your line of reasoning.

 

I have a bottle of batch 90 (could only get one) that I was planning to age for at least two years. Anyone heard about problems with that batch?

 

Yes, every special release I can recall since 2011 has included commentary on carbonation levels. E.g., https://www.facebook.com/groups/hairdog/permalink/10151635187448428/?stream_ref=2, https://www.facebook.com/groups/hairdog/permalink/10151905229273428/?stream_ref=2

 

Just as an FYI (since this thread is at the top of the page again), I just had one of our regular customers come in and complain about getting a dead flat bottle of Adam Batch 92, which just came in last week. I gave him another one and told him to report back, so we'll see if it's an isolated incident or what.

 

Really appreciated how The Lost Abbey handled the latest Cuvee De Tomme release when I picked up a couple bottles in early January - before buying the bottles the bartender gave a disclaimer saying that the batch was flat, which I appreciated. I asked if they tell everyone about the issue, to which he responded "Oh yeah. The last thing we want to deal with is a customer wanting to return a product that didn't meet expectations." While there have been other Lost Abbey releases in distro that came out flat in the past, it's nice to see the issue acknowledged and an explanation given in this case, for better or worse.

 

i'm talking to myself on this one, but after some research, i can correct myself. it's the high ABV that makes bottle conditioning difficult, not the risk of creating bombs.