Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #44 - Fermentation Target Upper Temp

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, Mar 23, 2015.

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What should be the target fermentation temperature, i.e. the highest temp?

Poll closed Mar 25, 2015.
  1. 72F

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. 74F

    20.5%
  3. 76F

    10.3%
  4. 78F

    15.4%
  5. 80F

    28.2%
  6. 82F

    5.1%
  7. 84F

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. 86F

    12.8%
  9. 88F

    2.6%
  10. 90F

    5.1%
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  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Poll #43 determined that we'll begin the fermentation at some lower temperature and ramp up to a higher temperature over some period of time.

    This poll will determine the target fermentation temp, i.e. the highest temperature that will be reached. When this poll is done, I will look at the data a few different ways to determine the central tendency. It may or may not be as simple as a plurality would indicate. There may or may not be a runoff. It all depends on the data. Want a higher or lower temp? Write it in.

    For those looking ahead, the polls to follow will determine the starting (pitching) fermentation temp and the time over which to ramp up to the target. After that, the Water polls.

    This poll will be open for 48 hours.

    (For those who don't know what I'm talking about, see these threads for the first two beers we did (and the bazillion ensuing polls and the final recipes...
    http://beeradvocate.com/community/threads/the-averagely-perfect-american-ipa-project.59552/
    http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/averagely-perfect-american-stout-poll-1-abv.131209/ )

    Issues with methodology? Take 'em to beermail please.

    The Averagely Perfect Saison so far...

    Batch Size: 5 Gallons
    ABV: 5.7%
    OG: 1.045
    FG: 1.002
    Mash Recommendation: Single Infusion @ 150F, 60 Minutes, no Mashout
    Assumed Mash Efficiency: 70%
    90 Minute Boil
    IBUs: 24
    Fermentation: Pitch at <TBD> Temp, ramping up to <TBD> Temp, over <TBD> Days

    Grain Bill:
    Belgian Pilsner Malt (68%)
    Flaked Wheat (17%)
    Vienna malt (15%)

    Yeasts:
    WLP565/Wyeast 3724 and WLP650, co-pitched [no starter for the Brett]

    Hops:
    60 Minutes - Saaz and Hallertau, approx. 15 IBUs, Split 50/50
    10 Minutes - 0.75 ounces Saaz , 0.75 ounces Hallertau
    Flameout/Whirlpool/Hopstand - 0.75 ounces Saaz, 0.75 ounces Hallertau
     
  2. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,737) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah Society

    The dog ate my copy of Farmhouse Ales. Could someone post what Markowski says is the temp that DuPont uses?
     
  3. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I believe he said 77-80...but that's 2nd hand...I don't have the book either. Do they co-pitch, though?
     
  4. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,176) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah Society

    My dog is well-behaved. She looked up the fermentation temp of DuPont for me in my copy of Farmhouse Ales. She says its 85-95F.
     
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  5. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I was led astray!
     
  6. RashyGrillCook

    RashyGrillCook Initiate (0) Apr 30, 2011 Florida

    Saison Dupont. Farmhouse Ales reports the following recipe for it:


    Saison Vieille Provision (Brasserie Dupont - Tourpes, Belgium)

    Original gravity: 1.054 SG (13.5 plato)

    ABV: 6.5%

    Yeast attenuation: 93%

    Malts: 100% Pilsner

    Hops: East Kent Goldings and Styrian Goldings (two additions)

    Yeast: House ale yeast

    Primary fermentation temperature: 85-95f

    Storage period: 6-8 weeks in bottle at 74-75f
     
    PortLargo likes this.
  7. ChrisMyhre

    ChrisMyhre Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2013 Massachusetts

    I can't get highest than about 78 with my current set up.
     
  8. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,737) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah Society

    [​IMG]
    You have a propane burner?
     
    #8 PortLargo, Mar 23, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2015
    ChrisMyhre likes this.
  9. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,934) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah Society

    DuPont is going that high because they are trying to make a lot of beer fast. There is no need to go anywhere near those temps, especially with the gravity of this beer. I mentioned in an earlier poll that I had a rye saison on DuPont dregs, it went from 1046 to 1003 in 7 days and the temperature never got to 80 degrees.

    I went with 80, but I will probably set the temp to 75 and if it wants to go higher than that, it can.
     
    jbakajust1 likes this.
  10. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    For me, the issue isn't the Dupont strain, but that we are co-pitching with Brett that apparently has an optimal fermentation range of 85+. So, I figure we need to at least get above 85° at some point.
     
  11. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,934) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah Society

    White Labs says "optimal fermentation range of 85+" to which I have to ask "optimal for what?" Does that maximize flavor or attenuation or something else?

    Orval doesn't copitch, but I doubt they are storing freshly bottled beer at 85-90 degrees to get that brett flavor. Does Farmhouse Ales mention this? I don't have the book in front of me. My guess would be that "normal" temperatures would be fine for both the sacc and brett.

    Brett at bottling from @OldSock "Left at 75-80 F to bottle condition."
    http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/08/bottle-conditioning-with-brett-belgian.html
     
  12. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,274) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    went 86 as bretts low end optimal is there and there is always the dreaded stall... and last time I did this my saison was dinged for needing more esters and phenols.
     
  13. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    Yeah, I saw that too. I also saw where Dupont is bottle conditioned below WL optimum for 650.

    I don't really know what optimum means. I mean, my vote is open to suggestions, and while DuPont is certainly a beer we could all aspire to produce...we don't necessarily need to make a clone.

    I am still a novice when it comes to Brett.
     
  14. sjverla

    sjverla Initiate (0) Dec 1, 2008 Massachusetts

    You live in Massachusetts. Brew this in mid July and you'll be good.
     
    ChrisMyhre likes this.
  15. OldSock

    OldSock Maven (1,406) Apr 3, 2005 District of Columbia

    Brett can get really plasitcy in the 80s. I'd worry about co-fermenting it with Dupont. WL Brett C in nice in the 80s, that's the way I'd go. Or stagger the pitch.
     
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  16. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,934) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah Society

    What do you think about the "optimal fermentation temperature" of 85+ per White Labs?
    http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp650-brettanomyces-bruxellensis

    Given we have "agreed" to copitch 3724 and WLP650, what fermentation temp would you recommend?
     
  17. OldSock

    OldSock Maven (1,406) Apr 3, 2005 District of Columbia

    I'd bet it's a typo? Maybe it's supposed to be 70-85F and attenuation of 85%+ (that's what they list for Trois)?

    I'd ferment it warm (just thinking about Dupont) and hope with so little Brett initially it won't make much character for the first few days. Once fermentation slows, I'd lower the temperature and let the Brett work in peace for a few months to finish off fermentation. Seems a bit silly to me though...
     
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  18. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,934) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Thanks, a typo makes sense.

    What part seems "silly"? Copitching? Or something else?
     
  19. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,934) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Just changed my vote to 74. If nothing else, it will help counter the couple who voted for 90 :slight_smile:
     
  20. OldSock

    OldSock Maven (1,406) Apr 3, 2005 District of Columbia

    Brewing something sub-optimal because it was voted on.

    Here are tasting notes for a beer I co-fermented with 550 and 650 at 75F ambient (likely 80F internal). One of my least successful batches.
     
    wspscott likes this.
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