Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #44 - Fermentation Target Upper Temp

The dog ate my copy of Farmhouse Ales. Could someone post what Markowski says is the temp that DuPont uses?

 

I believe he said 77-80...but that's 2nd hand...I don't have the book either. Do they co-pitch, though?

 

My dog is well-behaved. She looked up the fermentation temp of DuPont for me in my copy of Farmhouse Ales. She says its 85-95F.

 

I was led astray!

 

Saison Dupont. Farmhouse Ales reports the following recipe for it:


Saison Vieille Provision (Brasserie Dupont - Tourpes, Belgium)

Original gravity: 1.054 SG (13.5 plato)

ABV: 6.5%

Yeast attenuation: 93%

Malts: 100% Pilsner

Hops: East Kent Goldings and Styrian Goldings (two additions)

Yeast: House ale yeast

Primary fermentation temperature: 85-95f

Storage period: 6-8 weeks in bottle at 74-75f

 

I can't get highest than about 78 with my current set up.

 

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You have a propane burner?

 

DuPont is going that high because they are trying to make a lot of beer fast. There is no need to go anywhere near those temps, especially with the gravity of this beer. I mentioned in an earlier poll that I had a rye saison on DuPont dregs, it went from 1046 to 1003 in 7 days and the temperature never got to 80 degrees.

I went with 80, but I will probably set the temp to 75 and if it wants to go higher than that, it can.

 

For me, the issue isn't the Dupont strain, but that we are co-pitching with Brett that apparently has an optimal fermentation range of 85+. So, I figure we need to at least get above 85° at some point.

 

White Labs says "optimal fermentation range of 85+" to which I have to ask "optimal for what?" Does that maximize flavor or attenuation or something else?

Orval doesn't copitch, but I doubt they are storing freshly bottled beer at 85-90 degrees to get that brett flavor. Does Farmhouse Ales mention this? I don't have the book in front of me. My guess would be that "normal" temperatures would be fine for both the sacc and brett.

Brett at bottling from @OldSock "Left at 75-80 F to bottle condition."
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/08/bottle-conditioning-with-brett-belgian.html

 

went 86 as bretts low end optimal is there and there is always the dreaded stall... and last time I did this my saison was dinged for needing more esters and phenols.

 

Yeah, I saw that too. I also saw where Dupont is bottle conditioned below WL optimum for 650.

I don't really know what optimum means. I mean, my vote is open to suggestions, and while DuPont is certainly a beer we could all aspire to produce...we don't necessarily need to make a clone.

I am still a novice when it comes to Brett.

 

You live in Massachusetts. Brew this in mid July and you'll be good.

 

Brett can get really plasitcy in the 80s. I'd worry about co-fermenting it with Dupont. WL Brett C in nice in the 80s, that's the way I'd go. Or stagger the pitch.

 

What do you think about the "optimal fermentation temperature" of 85+ per White Labs?
http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp650-brettanomyces-bruxellensis

Given we have "agreed" to copitch 3724 and WLP650, what fermentation temp would you recommend?

 

I'd bet it's a typo? Maybe it's supposed to be 70-85F and attenuation of 85%+ (that's what they list for Trois)?

I'd ferment it warm (just thinking about Dupont) and hope with so little Brett initially it won't make much character for the first few days. Once fermentation slows, I'd lower the temperature and let the Brett work in peace for a few months to finish off fermentation. Seems a bit silly to me though...

 

Thanks, a typo makes sense.

What part seems "silly"? Copitching? Or something else?

 

Just changed my vote to 74. If nothing else, it will help counter the couple who voted for 90

 

Brewing something sub-optimal because it was voted on.

Here are tasting notes for a beer I co-fermented with 550 and 650 at 75F ambient (likely 80F internal). One of my least successful batches.

 

Michael,

When you state "least successful batch", is your criticism concerning the fact that the beer turned out very funky?

Cheers!

Jack

 

Well, if the WL figure is completely wrong, I'm a bit lost here. I want SOME funk...not ALL funk.

Hmm...

 

That batch just had a weird/young/raw funk I didn't care for. Granted it was a repitched slurry, and likely had considerably more Brett than a single vial would in this case. I liked the beer I repitched from, which got the Brett in primary with a 67F ambient fermentation to start (then warmed up when it stalled).

 

I suppose it is not an easy task to come up with unambiguous descriptions for various funky flavors.

My sole experience with brewing with Brett was a co-pitch of Bastogne yeast and Brett Brux via Wyeast 3789. I have zero idea what the relative amounts of ale yeast vs. Brett exists in that smack-pack. I did make a starter from Wyeast 3789 and maybe that could have changed the proportions even more?

What I can state is for two batches using 3789 (and making a starter of those smack-packs) is that the beer was dominated by funk. My guess is that the ale yeast strain was an early 'grower' in this batch and produced compounds that were later metabolized by the Brett Brux to create funky flavors. FWIW, I found those funky flavors to be consistent with the 'classic' descriptors of: barnyard, horse blanket, wet hay, etc. I was not shooting for a beer dominated by this level of funk originally but I really liked the resulting beer.

For both of these batches I fermented starting at the mid-high 60's and after about 4-5 days finish up in the mid-70s. A total of 4 weeks in the primary.

I have no specific experience with a co-pitch of WLP650/WY3724 & WLP650 so I am uncertain how well 3789 will 'translate' to this particular co-pitch. Does WLP650/WY3724 create the same type and amounts of phenols as the Bastogne yeast strain?

Cheers!

 

I've used 3724 for my Saison beers. I gradually increase the temps and end up using 2 heat belts & 1 pad to reach the upper 80's, so I chose 88. I've not reached a higher temp. I's a long process. Good luck & enjoy!

 

Have you used Brett with 3724? Specifically, have you copitched brett with 3724?

 

No, I've not co-pitched Brett with 3724.

 

I don't want to complicate the results of the poll, but Chad Y advocates making a brett starter if the brett culture has been refrigerated which would be applicable to store bought yeast.

Keep in mind, doing a starter doesn't necessarily mean growing the cell count in a significant way. There is such a thing as a wake up starter. In this case, a small volume starter such as a 500ml starter with a short duration of 4-5 non stirred days would serve well as a wake up starter.

 

You got a problem with democracy? This Amurica! We got a long, respected tradition of dealing with the sub-optimal because it was voted on.

 

So would you also say that fermenting at 75 will produce the same flavors with the Dupont yeast as fermenting at 85?

Too true!

 

80.... hrmm.. I think I can probably get that temp in my garage in about a month. Not a bad decision.

 

Man, all you need is a chest freezer, a heating pad, and a quilt. As me how i know.

 

Got all that... just not interested in turning my chest freezer into a hot box when my garage is about to become one. Ask me how my sours progress so well in a year with a cool house, and a hot garage.

 

No idea, I have never seen the need to push Dupont to a temp that high, but I am not trying to "finish" my beer in a weeks time either. And, I get great flavor with the yeast in the low 70s.

I've said it before, but I think a lot of the complaining about this yeast is because people don't make starters and they expect their yeast/beer to follow a schedule. There are lots of people who have reported absolutely no problems with this yeast other than it can be slow.