Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #44 - Fermentation Target Upper Temp

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, Mar 23, 2015.

?

What should be the target fermentation temperature, i.e. the highest temp?

Poll closed Mar 25, 2015.
  1. 72F

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. 74F

    20.5%
  3. 76F

    10.3%
  4. 78F

    15.4%
  5. 80F

    28.2%
  6. 82F

    5.1%
  7. 84F

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. 86F

    12.8%
  9. 88F

    2.6%
  10. 90F

    5.1%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Poll #43 determined that we'll begin the fermentation at some lower temperature and ramp up to a higher temperature over some period of time.

    This poll will determine the target fermentation temp, i.e. the highest temperature that will be reached. When this poll is done, I will look at the data a few different ways to determine the central tendency. It may or may not be as simple as a plurality would indicate. There may or may not be a runoff. It all depends on the data. Want a higher or lower temp? Write it in.

    For those looking ahead, the polls to follow will determine the starting (pitching) fermentation temp and the time over which to ramp up to the target. After that, the Water polls.

    This poll will be open for 48 hours.

    (For those who don't know what I'm talking about, see these threads for the first two beers we did (and the bazillion ensuing polls and the final recipes...
    http://beeradvocate.com/community/threads/the-averagely-perfect-american-ipa-project.59552/
    http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/averagely-perfect-american-stout-poll-1-abv.131209/ )

    Issues with methodology? Take 'em to beermail please.

    The Averagely Perfect Saison so far...

    Batch Size: 5 Gallons
    ABV: 5.7%
    OG: 1.045
    FG: 1.002
    Mash Recommendation: Single Infusion @ 150F, 60 Minutes, no Mashout
    Assumed Mash Efficiency: 70%
    90 Minute Boil
    IBUs: 24
    Fermentation: Pitch at <TBD> Temp, ramping up to <TBD> Temp, over <TBD> Days

    Grain Bill:
    Belgian Pilsner Malt (68%)
    Flaked Wheat (17%)
    Vienna malt (15%)

    Yeasts:
    WLP565/Wyeast 3724 and WLP650, co-pitched [no starter for the Brett]

    Hops:
    60 Minutes - Saaz and Hallertau, approx. 15 IBUs, Split 50/50
    10 Minutes - 0.75 ounces Saaz , 0.75 ounces Hallertau
    Flameout/Whirlpool/Hopstand - 0.75 ounces Saaz, 0.75 ounces Hallertau
     
  2. PortLargo

    PortLargo Devotee (484) Oct 19, 2012 Florida

    The dog ate my copy of Farmhouse Ales. Could someone post what Markowski says is the temp that DuPont uses?
     
  3. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I believe he said 77-80...but that's 2nd hand...I don't have the book either. Do they co-pitch, though?
     
  4. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    My dog is well-behaved. She looked up the fermentation temp of DuPont for me in my copy of Farmhouse Ales. She says its 85-95F.
     
    PortLargo and JohnSnowNW like this.
  5. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I was led astray!
     
  6. RashyGrillCook

    RashyGrillCook Initiate (0) Apr 30, 2011 Florida

    Saison Dupont. Farmhouse Ales reports the following recipe for it:


    Saison Vieille Provision (Brasserie Dupont - Tourpes, Belgium)

    Original gravity: 1.054 SG (13.5 plato)

    ABV: 6.5%

    Yeast attenuation: 93%

    Malts: 100% Pilsner

    Hops: East Kent Goldings and Styrian Goldings (two additions)

    Yeast: House ale yeast

    Primary fermentation temperature: 85-95f

    Storage period: 6-8 weeks in bottle at 74-75f
     
    PortLargo likes this.
  7. ChrisMyhre

    ChrisMyhre Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2013 Massachusetts

    I can't get highest than about 78 with my current set up.
     
  8. PortLargo

    PortLargo Devotee (484) Oct 19, 2012 Florida

    [​IMG]
    You have a propane burner?
     
    #8 PortLargo, Mar 23, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2015
    ChrisMyhre likes this.
  9. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    DuPont is going that high because they are trying to make a lot of beer fast. There is no need to go anywhere near those temps, especially with the gravity of this beer. I mentioned in an earlier poll that I had a rye saison on DuPont dregs, it went from 1046 to 1003 in 7 days and the temperature never got to 80 degrees.

    I went with 80, but I will probably set the temp to 75 and if it wants to go higher than that, it can.
     
    jbakajust1 likes this.
  10. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    For me, the issue isn't the Dupont strain, but that we are co-pitching with Brett that apparently has an optimal fermentation range of 85+. So, I figure we need to at least get above 85° at some point.
     
  11. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    White Labs says "optimal fermentation range of 85+" to which I have to ask "optimal for what?" Does that maximize flavor or attenuation or something else?

    Orval doesn't copitch, but I doubt they are storing freshly bottled beer at 85-90 degrees to get that brett flavor. Does Farmhouse Ales mention this? I don't have the book in front of me. My guess would be that "normal" temperatures would be fine for both the sacc and brett.

    Brett at bottling from @OldSock "Left at 75-80 F to bottle condition."
    http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/08/bottle-conditioning-with-brett-belgian.html
     
  12. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (1,819) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Society Trader

    went 86 as bretts low end optimal is there and there is always the dreaded stall... and last time I did this my saison was dinged for needing more esters and phenols.
     
  13. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    Yeah, I saw that too. I also saw where Dupont is bottle conditioned below WL optimum for 650.

    I don't really know what optimum means. I mean, my vote is open to suggestions, and while DuPont is certainly a beer we could all aspire to produce...we don't necessarily need to make a clone.

    I am still a novice when it comes to Brett.
     
  14. sjverla

    sjverla Disciple (397) Dec 1, 2008 Massachusetts

    You live in Massachusetts. Brew this in mid July and you'll be good.
     
    ChrisMyhre likes this.
  15. OldSock

    OldSock Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2005 District of Columbia

    Brett can get really plasitcy in the 80s. I'd worry about co-fermenting it with Dupont. WL Brett C in nice in the 80s, that's the way I'd go. Or stagger the pitch.
     
    machalel, ChrisMyhre and wspscott like this.
  16. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    What do you think about the "optimal fermentation temperature" of 85+ per White Labs?
    http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp650-brettanomyces-bruxellensis

    Given we have "agreed" to copitch 3724 and WLP650, what fermentation temp would you recommend?
     
  17. OldSock

    OldSock Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2005 District of Columbia

    I'd bet it's a typo? Maybe it's supposed to be 70-85F and attenuation of 85%+ (that's what they list for Trois)?

    I'd ferment it warm (just thinking about Dupont) and hope with so little Brett initially it won't make much character for the first few days. Once fermentation slows, I'd lower the temperature and let the Brett work in peace for a few months to finish off fermentation. Seems a bit silly to me though...
     
    machalel, ChrisMyhre and wspscott like this.
  18. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    Thanks, a typo makes sense.

    What part seems "silly"? Copitching? Or something else?
     
  19. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    Just changed my vote to 74. If nothing else, it will help counter the couple who voted for 90 :slight_smile:
     
  20. OldSock

    OldSock Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2005 District of Columbia

    Brewing something sub-optimal because it was voted on.

    Here are tasting notes for a beer I co-fermented with 550 and 650 at 75F ambient (likely 80F internal). One of my least successful batches.
     
    wspscott likes this.
  21. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,931) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Michael,

    When you state "least successful batch", is your criticism concerning the fact that the beer turned out very funky?

    Cheers!

    Jack
     
  22. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    Well, if the WL figure is completely wrong, I'm a bit lost here. I want SOME funk...not ALL funk.

    Hmm...
     
  23. OldSock

    OldSock Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2005 District of Columbia

    That batch just had a weird/young/raw funk I didn't care for. Granted it was a repitched slurry, and likely had considerably more Brett than a single vial would in this case. I liked the beer I repitched from, which got the Brett in primary with a 67F ambient fermentation to start (then warmed up when it stalled).
     
    wspscott and JackHorzempa like this.
  24. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,931) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    I suppose it is not an easy task to come up with unambiguous descriptions for various funky flavors.

    My sole experience with brewing with Brett was a co-pitch of Bastogne yeast and Brett Brux via Wyeast 3789. I have zero idea what the relative amounts of ale yeast vs. Brett exists in that smack-pack. I did make a starter from Wyeast 3789 and maybe that could have changed the proportions even more?

    What I can state is for two batches using 3789 (and making a starter of those smack-packs) is that the beer was dominated by funk. My guess is that the ale yeast strain was an early 'grower' in this batch and produced compounds that were later metabolized by the Brett Brux to create funky flavors. FWIW, I found those funky flavors to be consistent with the 'classic' descriptors of: barnyard, horse blanket, wet hay, etc. I was not shooting for a beer dominated by this level of funk originally but I really liked the resulting beer.

    For both of these batches I fermented starting at the mid-high 60's and after about 4-5 days finish up in the mid-70s. A total of 4 weeks in the primary.

    I have no specific experience with a co-pitch of WLP650/WY3724 & WLP650 so I am uncertain how well 3789 will 'translate' to this particular co-pitch. Does WLP650/WY3724 create the same type and amounts of phenols as the Bastogne yeast strain?

    Cheers!
     
  25. gotweid

    gotweid Initiate (0) May 9, 2007 Michigan

    I've used 3724 for my Saison beers. I gradually increase the temps and end up using 2 heat belts & 1 pad to reach the upper 80's, so I chose 88. I've not reached a higher temp. I's a long process. Good luck & enjoy!
     
  26. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    Have you used Brett with 3724? Specifically, have you copitched brett with 3724?
     
  27. gotweid

    gotweid Initiate (0) May 9, 2007 Michigan

    No, I've not co-pitched Brett with 3724.
     
  28. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

    I don't want to complicate the results of the poll, but Chad Y advocates making a brett starter if the brett culture has been refrigerated which would be applicable to store bought yeast.

    Keep in mind, doing a starter doesn't necessarily mean growing the cell count in a significant way. There is such a thing as a wake up starter. In this case, a small volume starter such as a 500ml starter with a short duration of 4-5 non stirred days would serve well as a wake up starter.
     
  29. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    You got a problem with democracy? This Amurica! We got a long, respected tradition of dealing with the sub-optimal because it was voted on. :wink:
     
    jbakajust1 likes this.
  30. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Mean, Median, and Mode: 80F. Word.
     
  31. RashyGrillCook

    RashyGrillCook Initiate (0) Apr 30, 2011 Florida

    So would you also say that fermenting at 75 will produce the same flavors with the Dupont yeast as fermenting at 85?

    Too true!
     
  32. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    80.... hrmm.. I think I can probably get that temp in my garage in about a month. Not a bad decision.
     
  33. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    Man, all you need is a chest freezer, a heating pad, and a quilt. As me how i know.
     
  34. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia


    Got all that... just not interested in turning my chest freezer into a hot box when my garage is about to become one. :wink: Ask me how my sours progress so well in a year with a cool house, and a hot garage.
     
    JohnSnowNW likes this.
  35. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    No idea, I have never seen the need to push Dupont to a temp that high, but I am not trying to "finish" my beer in a weeks time either. And, I get great flavor with the yeast in the low 70s.

    I've said it before, but I think a lot of the complaining about this yeast is because people don't make starters and they expect their yeast/beer to follow a schedule. There are lots of people who have reported absolutely no problems with this yeast other than it can be slow.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.