Trip logs for Outside the PNW

I'm surprised to hear folks say the distro Caldera isn't great. As mentioned, Mogli is great, the canned IPA / APA for the price point are very solid, Lawnmower Lager is a great adjunct lager, Old Growth was a solid Imperial Stout, and the Rauchbier is one of the best I've had. IMHO their basic products beer for beer match up pretty well with Fremont's basic stuff ...

 

I've only had a couple Caldera offerings and they were all pretty average to subpar.

 

We're all entitled to our opinions, certainly, but the ratings for the ones I mentioned bear out that concensus is they're above average and, for some styles, superlative. Granted, I've skipped those - like Vas Deferens - that seemed to be only mediocre. I'd encourage you to try Mogli if you're a porter fan. And the rauchbier if you dig something smokey.

 

I'm with Zestd on this. The only Caldera we see up here regularly are the cans of the basic Pale and IPA. And to call them average is being very generous. Admittedly, I haven't tried one in a couple years, but I thought they were pretty bad. Lots of folks seem to think highly of them, so maybe there's some cosmic transmongrification happening when the truck carrying it crosses the Skagit river.

 

Been ages since I've posted a trip log ... and now I'm posting as an emigrant to the Midwest. I recently hit Tampa / St. Petersburg for work and came in a bit early to check out the breweries. A surprisingly active scene. And, for my money, the real excitement is away from the known entities like Cigar City and Cycle.

TAMPA-SIDE

Cigar City blah blah blah. I looked at the tap list before going. It didn't inspire me. People told me not to waste my time. I didn't listen. My least favorite spot I visited. Yes, they make some astounding beers. But ... those beers are virtually guaranteed not to be on tap. The tap list focuses on a bunch of OK IPA variants, German and English styles (ESBs, Helles lager), variants of their browns, some sours that go for that Floridian fake sweetness. I did a flight and 2 of the four beers were just not pleasant. The bartenders do a good job of moving through the crowd and, from what I gather, there is usually a crowd, particularly on weekends. The crowd itself feels touristy, like the locals say "it's too crowded so nobody goes there anymore." The vibe of the space is also unpleasantly touristy and bland. A bar up front for growlers / crowlers, then a gift shop (yes - like any tourist attraction ... selling crap like Jai Alai soap and CCB skateboards - WTF?), then the main bar area. Standard crappy sales tactic; make you wade through the gift shop. The back bar is a non-descript box, no windows, a few scattered tables. Simply not a pleasant place to hang out. Skip it or just hit it quick, check the box, move on to more pleasant environs.

Next up was Angry Chair in what seems to be a hip / developing neighborhood called Seminole Heights. Lots of nice restaurants scattered around so this could be a good spot to do lunch from. This is a must stop location. Less than a year old, it's a small taproom with a pretty broad selection (10 - 12 taps?) focusing on stouts / milk stouts, sours, some hoppy beers. The low abv milk stouts I had were spectacular, the sours very solid, and the hoppy beers pretty good. The tap room itself does the industrial chic thing, scavenged tractor seats as bar stools, exposed light bulbs ... but is filled with natural light. Wish I'd skipped CCB and spent more time here. There's a nice bottle shop - Bottles & Jugs I think - right down the street with a couple of well curated taps for growler fills (or to drink on site I believe). Hit both.

Final Tampa stop was Coppertail. I think they're a year old. I'd never heard of them and was tempted to skip them and move on to St. Petersburg. Do not skip them. DO NOT SKIP THEM. One of my two favorite spots in the area and one I wish I'd planned to spend much more time at. Surprisingly large standalone building, not just a little taproom. Also industrial chic but with a nautical theme ... some really nice local art, high ceilings, two stories with a patio on each floor, giant windows under the patios letting in the right amount of light to be pleasant drinking all day in the land of sunshine. The taps were stellar. Maybe 12 of their own beers on and 6 or so guest taps that were spot on; CCB's 110K Imperial Stout, stuff from MIA down in Miami, 7th Sun saisons. As for their own beers they ran the gammut from berliners, fruited variants, a killer DIPA called Brews Banner, funky saisons, their regular rotation beers (a light wheat, APA / IPA, Belgian styles). Quality was top notch. They offered 4 oz pours of all their own beers for $2 so sample away.

Didn't make it to a place called Six Ten but had their Blackberry Berliner at a restaurant and it was decent. If I make it back, I'll give them a whirl.

ST PETERSBURG SIDE

Cross that long ass bridge and there are a lot more options on the St Pete's side. First stop was Cycle on the Central strip. Nothing major to report here ... tiny taproom, small selection of taps. Also goes for the industrial vibe but it's tinier and more simplified so it doesn't really exude the personality of even Angry Chair. It can't rival Coppertail. No sampler sizes and cash only so be prepared to go with a pint. The options are usually pretty limited - Crank, Fixie, Cream and Sugar, etc - and focused on their day to day stuff. It's good but don't expect Nooner's or Rare DOS on the regular. Recommended execution here is get a pint or something they don't crowler, grab crowlers of everything else, and hit the road.

Next stop was down Central at Green Bench. Apparently there's some sort of brewer drama where the brewer at GB is persona non grata locally for some comments about local tastes ... but I could care less because the space and beers are both great. Gives Coppertail a run for my money as best spot. Old brick building, local mural art, high ceilings and giant windows, rustic design, large covered patio and lawn area with Adirondack chairs and lawn games. Family and dog friendly. Beer selection is around 16 taps running from IPAs to kettle sours to dry hopped sours to funky saisons to browns to dry stouts to ... well, you get it. They completely skip the Florida gimmicky fruit sours or adjunct heavy stouts for a more classic execution. You won't find a mojito kolsch, a dragonfruit kiwi gose, or a peanut butter praline stout. More Tired Hands type approach than CCB. They keep a good number of bottles on hand as well. Must stop.

For sustenance I went further down Central to Urban BBQ & Brews. Great BBQ, good tap list. Apparently the same folks are opening a brewery further down Central, Urban Brewing, but it wasn't open yet. I made the mistake of visiting 3 Daughters just because it was there. Horrible beers. Good example of how the industrial vibe without attention to detail just doesn't work. Do not harm yourself with these beers.

Other spots that seem worth visiting but I didn't have time for are 7th Sun, Peg's, Pair O Dice, Rapp, and Barley Mow. Rapp, with their German styles, and 7th Sun, with their saisons, were my next choices. I did have a nice Barley Mow IPA and a great 7th Sun saison around town so I can vouch that they're doing some quality stuff.

 

recently back from a trip to the Midwest, and I suppose I should throw up a few highlights:

Chicago:
I spent a few days in Chicago on my trip (which was mainly to visit the moms in Indy), and managed to drink a ton of good beer while I was there.

My first stop was Jerry's in Andersonville. A very solid taplist (Uncle Jacob's on tap? yes please.), a relatively small, but very well curated bottle list, and while I didn't eat there, the food looked amazing. Very friendly staff, and a great atmosphere with a huge bar and open windows to the street. I can't really say enough good things about this spot, and while it's a bit out of the way, it's relatively easy to get to, and I'd recommend it without hesitation.

Later that day I met up with friends at the Half Acre Brewing taproom. 6-8 beers on tap, as I recall, and some solid selections at that. Everything I had was good. It's a small industrial vibe, and worth hitting if you're in the area.

Having not had nearly enough beer, we then went to Hopleaf for some food and more beers. A pretty great taplist broken out by style, with a big emphasis on belgians. I finally ate some food. It was probably too late, but it was damned delicious.

I think we went a few more places that night, but to be honest after Jerry's and the first couple at Half Acre, it's really a huge blur.

The next day I ventured out to Local Option, which was about as PNW a bar as you could find in Chicago. A metal bar with an outstanding tap list, and a bunch of great bottles. Low frills, bearded metal dudes, great beer. What more could you ask for?

If you need a beer for the train ride once you leave Local Option, the Whole Foods right next to the EL stop has a decent selection, and a nice bar as well.

Later, we headed to Northdown Cafe & Taproom. Decent taplist (about 10 handles if I recall correctly) and a pretty extensive bottle/can list. There was a can special taking place, so I had a handful of Surly cans while I was there, along with a delicious veggie sausage, and left quite happy.

The next day, we hit Longman & Eagle for brunch (which was outstanding. and wait-free. imagine that). Something like 10-15 taps (I was finally able to try Ninja vs. Unicorn...) and an unbelievable whiskey list. A decent cooler-full of localish bottles as well.

From L&E, we walked over to Revolution and had a few beers. The beers were solid, some interesting cask selections available, and well worth a visit. I hear great things about their food as well.

I'd be remiss to not toss in a couple of hotspots from my childhood home-
Indianapolis:

I didn't hit a ton of spots during my visit, but I did hit some highlights:

Twenty Tap is a great spot with excellent food and 30 some taps (despite the name) of mostly Indiana/midwest beers. Recommended if you're in Indy with a car.

Black Acre Brewing has been consistently the best local brewery (in my opinion) over my past few visits to Indy. A great neighborhood space, friendly staff, amazing beers and some great guest taps. GO HERE.

I hit HopCat with a friend, and while the atmosphere leaves something to be desired, they had a ton of good beers on tap, and I got to try some stuff I'd been wanting to check out, including some good midwest sours. And they have giant tater tots. So there.

Also in the Broad Ripple area, I dropped into The Sinking Ship. Friends have been talking about this place for a couple years and I was eager to check it out. It's your classic dive bar, add a side of metal, and a side of hockey. Metal Hockey Dive Bar? Sure. that sounds about right. The food was pretty good, and they had a small but excellent selection of handles. Worth a stop.

The Upland Brewing taproom in Carmel is kind of odd, in a weird strip mall. Their flagship line-up was on tap, unfortunately no sours, which I was interested in trying. The space is pretty nice, considering the location.

Also up in Carmel, I met up with some friends at The Pint Room. A great selection of handles with a focus on Local/Regional beers, but quite a few west coast options as well. Maybe it was the late time on a weeknight, or my PNW bias, but man, hearing the staff talk about beers made me cringe a little, in that they had almost no idea what they were talking about. That said, it's a solid option if you're in the area.

Back downtown, I managed to hit a couple of spots that I'd never checked out. The first of which was Chatham Tap. A pretty great selection of handles, and I seem to recall a bottle list as well. The space was pretty decent, divided between the bar/taproom side, and another side with a shuffleboard table and pool tables. I'm not sure if it was just due to it being a Saturday night, and multiple college football games going on, but it had a really douchy college bar vibe. I'd be willing to give it another shot based on the taplist alone. Might be better during the day/weeknights.

I also hit a new spot, called simply The Tap. It was apparently their second or third night open, and the newness was apparent. A huge number of taps (50+), a decent selection of bottles, grouped by state/region, and a nice bright, modern space. I think this place has potential to be a must-hit, once they iron out some of the opening wrinkles

And, finally, I'd be remiss to not mention my favorite bottle shop in all of Indy, Parti-Pak. Conveniently located quite close to my Mom's house, and with an outstanding selection of both easy and hard-to-find beers, if you're hunting for bottles, this is the place. I don't often find a bottleshop out of the PNW that I hold in high regard, and I seem to judge everything with a reference to the likes of Belmont Station or BeerMongers, but Parti-Pak holds its own against those. The only caveat is definitely being weary of out-of-date hoppy selections, but in general, this is the spot.

 

Big Europe trip log. Not so much a beer-centric trip, but after visiting this wonderful continent for the last 3 weeks (and being on vacation for the past 7), life kind of becomes a beer trip.

London

• Bloody hell, the pub scene is brilliant! throw back a couple Young's Bitters and have a nice conversation with the chavs and you've set yourself up for a mighty fine evening. Pubs ranged from friendly/nice to stuffy and of course, extremely lushy. Out of all the cities i visited, London made it the most clear that they love getting drunk.
• Drank as much Beavertown and Kernel as I could. Loved Beavertown's Bloody 'Ells (IPA with freshly harvested blood orange). Thought all of the Kernel beers were meh, and couldn't really find another Beavertown beer I liked half as much as Bloody 'Ells (which, to be fair, was my favorite beer of the trip).
• Brewdog pub in Clapham was cool, and tokyo on tap was nice. Prices were high, but they are anti-macro and provide a living wage for their employees. That matters for something, right?
• Drank quite a bit of Brixton (nice pale ales), really enjoyed Fourpure's IPA (inspired by PDX! seriously.), and kept trying all the casks (overall nice, but nothing really to report). All-in-all, really nice city for beer.

Dublin

• Guinness draught, export stout, and foreign export stout taste mighty fine in Dublin.
• The couple beer pubs around town owned by Galway Bay Brewery are a welcome change of pace. But honestly, I enjoyed drinking Irish whiskey and Guinness more. Color me simple, I guess.

Paris

• Preface: I was primarily drinking wine during my stay in Paris (and if you're visiting, my opinion is you should be too).
• Brewberry bar was a nice stop. Accidentally ordered a 0.5L of Cantillon Gueze. This started my love/hate relationship of Cantillon.
• Le Supercoin. A bar primarily focused on French beers. Good beer, prices, and music. My ideal bar. Wish I spent more time here.
• Kronenbourg 1664. Bad.

Brussels

• Cantillon. This might be nice beer for someone who loves tasting "barnyard funk" and definitely minds getting drunk (or even buzzed). Some will read this as ignorant-to-style at best, but I don't find their beers particularly good. Traditional lambic? ...Sure? Are they nice and representative of traditional lambic and geuze? Who knows! The history of these styles seems murky at best, and it is not a very thirst-quenching style. Take this hot take with a grain of salt, because I also thought Cantillon's ambiance and general beer-snobbery was a heaping pile of shit. Was Fou Foune great? Of course. Was RdG tasting delicious? Yeah, absolutely. But Geuze, Kriek, and a couple beers later sampled around town? I'll absolutely be passing on next time I see them on tap. Regardless of their surrounding hype or vintage.
• Moeder Lambic. Awesome. Good beer, good cheese, not pretentious (despite clientelle).
• 3F...
• Bottle baskets. Sure, why not.
• Bottleshops. Westy 6/8/12 for 18 euros. Cantillon and 3F priced similarly. HARD PASS.

Amsterdam

• I'll spare everyone the time and skip over "logging" this city. We visited during King's Day, and I was generally in an altered state of conscience the entire time. I will say this: Heineken tastes fucking great while walking around downtown and inebriated. I hope to return soon, because Amsterdam is rich with great pubs and great breweries/bottleshops, too. Cafe Gollem, Beer Tree, and Craft & Draft treated me very well. A bottle of Westy 8 was a nice surprise.

Rome

• Ma Che Siete Venuti A Fa. Such a wonderful bar. Great drafts and bottles. Nice ambiance. Enjoyed the locals coming in for some draft beer to-go.
• The general beer scene in Italy. Best experience of the trip. I have no clue why they pour all their beers with so much head/foam, but I love it.
• LoverBeer. My favorite beers of the trip were from this brewery. The saisons and sours were all excellent. Bummed I didn't get any bottles to take back to the States.
  
• Xyauyu: Not worth the price, but nice.
  
• Peroni: Bad.
• Birra Moretti: Bad
• Birra Del Borgo. Bad and striking while the iron's hot.
• Nastro Azzuro. Hell yeah!

Cheers.

 

You gotta go back; you missed Minneapolis Town Hall and Barley John's. ;-)

Minneapolis Town Hall has one of the more interesting barrel aging programs around IMHO and Barley John's, though a bit obsessed with naming beers after Batman, does some surprising work out of a tap room that feels stuck in the suburban 80s.

Lots of other little spots worth checking out ... Fair State, Bent Paddle, Boom Island, Sisyphus. May be my vote for the most under-rated beer city. A lot of towns I find that the unheralded breweries are ... deservedly so. In Minnesota, almost every place seems to be making beer that's at least solid.

 

Can't believe I didn't look at this thread before. Some great stuff here.

Sadly, all I can add is that in summer, 2010 (only time I've been out of the PNW since 2001), Murray, Kentucky was mostly a dry town (though, for those of you in N. Washington, they did have a Fidalgo Bay Coffee - still trying to wrap my head around that).

 

Hit Asheville recently. Great trip. A few highlights ...

Fonta Flora. Though not in Asheville - it's about an hour east - it's a must visit. I hit it on the way in from Charlotte. Reminds me, in some ways, of a PNW spot ... like an Upright that's not underground. It's also miniscule; no shock to me now that the more lauded brews of theirs are hard to trade for ... it's off the beaten path and the bottle counts can't be high. A great selection of farmhouse style beers, really focused on local ingredients. The surprise here was that the quality extends to the hops and the more traditional styles. Often when farmhouse and saison is the passion, other styles are there as filler. The Irish stout and the Hop Beard + Double Hop Beard were all excellent. Catawba brewing, right near by, was garbage BTW. Apparently the Fonta Flora brewer used to brew there. They've either fallen off big time or he was doing penance.

Sierra Nevada. This place is spectacular. The setting is gorgeous. Right by the Asheville airport but nestled back in wooded hills so you'd never realize it. A long winding drive takes you across stone bridges, past some artfully ramshackle old farm buildings and farm + brewing equipment (hillbilly chic?) up to what is one of the classiest looking breweries you'll see. Beautiful copper tanks, stone work. Walkway above the brewery where you can peruse old Sierra memorabilia and look down on the operation. The taps are pretty great, revealing the diversity of their offering: a lot of brewery only German beers, some unique BA stuff (BA Rain Check, BA Hoptimum), and some brewery only IPAs. One single hop beer, Frank Zappa, was among the best SN IPAs I've had. Bocce, cornhole, a kids play area, fire pits, an amphitheatre out back. Lovely way to spend an afternoon.

Wicked Weed. I hit both the non-sour brewery and the Funkatorium. Both great spots but for spaciousness and selection, the main brewery is the one to hit. A decent selection of the sours and a broad selection of hops and Belgian styles with an increasing interest in German styles. They do a LOT of different styles. I think there were ... 25+ beers on tap when I was there. Food looked great and the vibe is on point. This is clearly what Asheville wants and needs more of; the place was packed.

Bruisin Ales. Probably the best bottle shop in town. In addition to a great selection of Asheville beer there's some nice stuff from around the state (NoDa out of Charlotte, Olde Hickory, Zebulon which nearby, etc.) Special shout out to the beers I got from Zebulon. They were excellent. As I understand it, this is the brewer that did the Snozzberry / Maceo / Bootsy beers at Green Man. He's now doing farmhouse beers and historical re-creations (think "what would a true India Pale Ale shipped to India have tasted like hundreds of years ago?"). In excellent quirky style he dedicates each beer to a person - David Lynch, Merle Haggard, Krishnamurty, etc. Awesome stuff.

Green Man. The beers are ok to solid. The reputation garnered from the above mentioned sours doesn't really extend to all their beers. I really expected the English styles to be on point but, oddly, the mild and the bitter I had were the most disappointing beers of theirs. OK at best. They've expanded to a big space and the upstairs is nice.

Burial. Killer spot. Gritty vibe with a lot of metal influence ... but weaving in a kind of ornate organic imagery. I dig it. Farmhouse styles but the pilsner was great as was the coconut brown ale. No "spectacular" beers but great across the board. I was lucky enough to be there when they had a NC Saison festival with 40 or so saisons from across the state. Great event and an insane bargain ... $8 got you a glass and 2 5 oz pours with additional 5 oz pours being $2. A must in Asheville.

But here's the down low. People saying Asheville is one of the "great beer cities" must not have ever been to Denver / Boulder / Bend / Portland / Seattle / San Diego / Chicago / etc. It's second tier. That's not to say it isn't a killer place to visit - there are great outdoor activities, there's the Moog factory (yes!!), and a lot more to do. But from a beer side, not a first class destination yet. Sure, they have some nice breweries. Yes, a lot of big breweries are moving in (I just missed New Belgium's grand opening). Yes, they have solid density in the city and decent walkability. But, they are missing some critical elements. First, beer bars. There isn't a single beer bar I would even say is good. Nothing that would even compare to some of the sleepers in Seattle (The Masonry?) or Portland. This extends to dives / restaurants. You can't go to a crappy dive or a restaurant in Portland without having a couple good taps. Not the case in Asheville. Secondly, distribution. The selection outside of local ... is sparse. At the better bars, they may have 1 international tap (something like Weihenstephaner hefe) and a couple non-local craft domestics (big name national stuff). You're not gonna see any regional stuff either; no South Carolina brews from spots like Coast or Westbrook coming in. Finally, consistency. There are plenty of brewers there making mediocre to bad beer. That's not to say everyone in Portland or Seattle makes great beer, but the quality is uniformly good. And there are surprises. You can go to places without a national reputation - Seapine, Standard, Stoup, Baerlic, etc - and the beers will be good. The few local spots I hadn't heard of that I hit - Catawba, Asheville Brewing, Twin Leaf, Wedge - were just not very good (with the exception of an English Style IPA at Wedge that was great).

 

Asheville isnt Portland or Denver, but i think it easily matches Bend - very comparable places in general. You hit some good spots - so many more though

 

My biggest issue was the lack of diversity, the poor quality of the beer bars. In Bend I generally find every brewery is solid, bars all have nice taps, and there are at least a few really solid bars.

What other good spots are out there? Hi-Wire and Altamont were the other two that seemed appealing.

 

okay, you twisted my arm, i'll go back.

 

That's awesome you went to Asheville! I'm a PNW transplant from Asheville that moved to Seattle this past August. While I agree Asheville has a lot of hit or miss breweries, all cities/towns do. The fact is the bar was set by Burial/WW when they opened a few years ago and it has taken great strides since then pushing the existing breweries to new areas. Trying to compare AVL to all those cities is silly because well, they're cities. What makes Asheville so great is that it is tiny (around 100K people) yet there are what now seems to be 20 breweries in the county, and it started back in 94, which is something unheard of in the south, they were the pioneers of the southeast in the sense of support local craft beer with more than 1 brewery.

It's nowhere near as easy for said beer bars to get the imports that some cities have access to, but they still have good shit coming in from time to time. The southeast is one of the last places a lot of breweries want to distribute to. Thirsty Monk had a keg of Fou' Foune on tap last summer, the most highly coveted Cantillon beer (subjective) and a solid bottle list of imports in the downstairs of the downtown location. Every restaurant in town has local craft beer predominantly, maybe it's not a top 250 beer, but there is always craft beer to be had which makes it unique among the southeast and really lots of places in the U.S. and it is something that has been going on well before craft beer became as crazy as it is today. The new Funkatorium invitational (formerly Funk AVL) by WW is a pretty damn good festival that brings in some of the most unique sour/farmhouse breweries across the country, Duck Duck Gooze was even pouring last year which is pretty dang rare even in San Diego. A nice treat for the locals of a small town in the south.

I'd honestly say all but maybe a dozen or so breweries in Seattle are boring, generic and decent at best, with several that are making beer that is just downright awful. Asheville definitely has a LOT of mediocre beer, but I don't think it's fair to just hate on Asheville because not everything is a Holy Mountain/Reuben's/Fremont etc. Every city/town has it's boring breweries.

Asheville isn't a great beer city, it's a great beer town, because it isn't a city. That whole beer city usa award is a crock of shit award anyways. Trying to compare it to other beer centric cities is kind of silly and is missing the point. There's a reason Oskar Blues/Sierra/New Belgium/White Labs set up east coast shops there and it's more than the water quality/accessibility to much of the east coast. The culture is fully supportive of craft beer and has been for a long time. Craft is obviously subject to interpretation haha.

I am so excited Zebulon opened and cannot wait to try their beer next time in town. This is the type of stuff that will makes it way into town now that WW and Burial have set the bar by pushing the limits. Burial will finally have the space to get a large(ish) barrel program at their new location which will be awesome, I've loved their barrel aged belgian styles.

Sorry for rambling, just trying put some positive points into my former town, it makes me happy hearing you went!! I swear I don't want this to get into a debate, just putting some points in from a former local Maybe the expectations were just too high, it's kind of surprising you even knew it as a "beer city" because most people I meet out west have no clue about AVL.

Cheers!

Edit: I will post a more on topic post in a few weeks after a trip down to the bay area

 

The only quibble I have with your post is that Asheville is most certainly a city. A small city, sure, but still a city. Anytime you've got 100,000 people, you're a city.

 

Haha true, not a metropolis

 

Hope it didn't sound like I was "hating" on Asheville. I actually meant my post to point out that iit was a killer place to visit. (In fact ... I said exactly that!) I was merely pointing out some obvious shortcomings and responding to listicles (and some particularly passionate locals) that make claims beyond Asheville's reach. But I didn't mean to just insult it for what it isn't; also meant to compliment it for what it is. I'm sure it will continue its upward trend. But it's a time consuming challenge to build a widespread regional culture. Most other great beer cities are situated in great beer regions; the south faces challenges there.

 

Sorry, I can be bad with internet communication haha

Damn forums. Glad you had a great time!

 

The thing is, it's almost always the folks from Asheville (and Grand Rapids) making the silly comparison that their cities can hang with the big guys. @Kurmaraja was simply pointing out what most people from the bigger beer cities already know; namely that they're both quaint little towns with a decent smattering of breweries, but they lack the depth and breadth of beer culture that permeates places like Portland, Seattle, and Denver.

 

I am going to say no doubt Asheville is a great place but like when i was back in GA last month i felt like i had to tip HUGE as the scummy minimum wage for servers in NC and GA is a pathetic $2.13 an hour.
Starvation wages if the business is slow.
I found myself tipping 100% of a meal i got in GA,,because i felt so bad for the servers.
Apologies for bringing this into the thread.
Bend is far better because you are not taking advantage of servers.