Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #20 - Brett Timing

So has anyone ever tried pitching brett with this method? I thought some of you out there had some experience with it. I believe I voted to pitch before fermentation was complete in the earlier polls, but the main reason was it sounded like an interesting idea and curious to how it would turn out.

Anyway, I went 1.024, because that is the halfway point. Honestly, I won't bothering checking gravity, probably just pitch after a couple days.

Also, isn't the amount of brett pitched going to have a big impact on flavor?

 

Might be of interest regarding pitching brett in the middle of fermentation

From Wicked Weed regarding using their dregs

"as far as whats in the blend... yes the whole mix of sac, brett, lacto and pedio. its an evolving culture that we have been developing for years. It will be viable and will be heavy on brett and lacto. i would suggest doing a sac or bretta primary with the beer, while at the same time growing the dregs up in a 200ml flask on a stir plate. at 80% terminal on primary pitch in the bugs and let the beer free rise."

post #13 in this thread http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/wicked-weed-bottle-dregs.183056/

 

I co pitch these two strains together for my house saison. The last batch is lacking in saison esters and phenols, however I didn't ferment very warm. I left her at the low end of the brett temp range. Next time I am going to go ahead and ramp her up to the hi end of the brett temp range at day 3 and see if that gets me where I want to be.

 

I vote for pitching brett on day one, at the same time with the sacc.

 

I can't say that I have shot for a certain SG to pitch Brett, but I have targeted SG's for staggered nutrient additions.
CO2 is constantly being produced during active fermentation, so worrying about oxygen ingress from pulling samples seems moot. Infection would be the biggest worry (however, we're pitching wild yeast anyway). For me, using a wine thief and lifting a quick sample is as non-violent a task as they come.

This is pretty much why I voted 1.018.
Avoiding the tropical fruit flavors (as best as possible) by adding Brett after high krausen but before complete attenuation. Allowing the Brett access to some of the Sacc fermentation by-products before the Sacc cleans them up itself. (I guess)In an attempt to compliment the earthy character of the dupont stain with some Brett hay/straw/barnyard funk.
I should also state that if the Brett is ready to be pitched and the SG is reading 1.020(or 1.022,1.016,etc.) I'm going to pitch it right then. How tight of a tolerance you maintain to target is solely your own discretion.

 

Ah. Then I guess my write in is sneaky and underhanded. I'll go ahead and add my vote at 1.033

 

Early as possible.

Seems logical. Need the brett to work on the flaked grains we have in there. Takes a little time.

That and I follow what wixked weed does because their yeast strain is fucking vicious. It rips through wort and it's funky and sour. Not what we are all going for, but it's good for thought.

 

Have you ever used their brett (no bugs) in a beer? Thinking of stepping up some of the dregs from a brett saison, I have two in the fridge, forget their names. Then pitching on an APA with Comet, Chinook, Citra that has already fermented out.

Basically, I want to know if their brett is anything "special" I really liked their "Lusus Naturae", never would have thought of brett in a DIPA, got me thinking about it for a basic APA.

 

BM me or post in the wicked weed thread. I have used their stuff and it's pretty amazing.

 

Went with 1.006 because I want the WLP565 to really do its thing before letting the Brett have at it.

 

And now for the next trick . . . in addition to timing the addition of 644, the group should be considering how the ferm temps comes into play. From White Labs web site they list optimum temp of 565 as 68-75 which a lot of people consider too low. Wyeast shows 70-95 for 3724 which I think (hope) is closer to what the group votes on. Optimum temp for 644 is shown as 70-85, but a couple of prominent posters to the recipe forum shows they ferm 644 in the mid 60s and low 70s.

One of the first rules of mixing yeasts is they must have compatible temperatures. We are flirting with messing this up. Pretty sure the 3724 will become unhappy if the temp is dropped during mid-fermentation. Can 644 really handle temps in the 80s? IMO, the timing of adding 644 is really married to the temp chosen. For now I'm still ignoring the non-linear rate at which the gravity will be dropping . . . just not enough room in my head for all that.

I personally like messing around with new techniques like this . . . but really expected someone from this forum to have actually tried staggered additions and had comments on results.

 

I don't see a problem here. If we dropped the temp on the 3724, it would be "done" and the Brett would take over. This seems like a perfectly viable way to guarantee a piece of the action for the Brett. Of course, we'd have to vote for fermentation temperature or temperatures in a later poll (and I probably don't have to ask Vikeman to take note, as I am sure he's thought about this possibility). I have no idea if this would result in a beer that I would like, but if I ever made Brett Saison my life's work, I would certainly try it to explore the impact of this technique.

 

3724 works fine at 70 - 75, I don't see a problem here.

 

I concur. Changed my vote to this write-in for a co-pitch.

 

Not necessarily a problem, but it must be managed (or at least attempted). For the 1.033 voters, if this technique is used it could happen after the first day, second day at most. We all know how excited those yeasties become when exponential growth starts. When I ferm this strain at high temps I get 90% AA in 8 days. I've never measured grav after only one day but this recipe could drop a dozen points PDQ. Anyone really want to pull the rug on 3724 after say 36 hours and 12 points?

The threads are long and many of complaints from posters about stalled 3724 . . . a common criteria is temp in the low-mid 70s. Corrective action is increased time and temp. Not unusual to read posts about 3724 stalling (or really slowing down which is the same thing) in the 1.020'ish reading and taking 4+ weeks to finish. Are the voters in the 1.020-range ready for this?

From another thread:

This is taken taken out of context, but if you search for "stalled 3724" you'll find lots of posts echoing stalled/slowed problems. FTR, my use of dupont dregs (which technically is another strain) is a scorcher when I get it in the 80s.

My Point (long-winded): The addition of 644 is tied to SG from another poll, but temp (TBD) is a major player in how all this works. The addition could come as early as 1-2 days or as late as a month depending on results of this poll and temp poll. The group has set up conditions that are going to make it difficult to add 644 mid-fermentation (grav/time/temp) for most of us homebrewers. Once in the primary a lot of attention to grav and potentially raising/lower ferm temp which are not routine to many (at least me). This is the equivalent of a figure skater holding a spinning plate in each hand while attempting a triple-axel. But 39 voters wanted it, if anyone forgot how they voted here's the list.

 

I voted for later in the primary. Selfishly for my own experimentation. I've copitched brett, pitched after primary and pitched at bottling, but never with a few plato left in the primary (nor a 100% brett beer, but that is on my list). I'm not too worried about pitching at an exact SG. I would be ok with anything between 1.018 and 1.009. I voted for 1.012 as my target. My process would be to check gravity once when I think it was about correct and then make a judgement at that point when to pitch the brett.

Honestly I don't think pitching brett towards the end of fermentation will be much than pitching brett after primary, but that's sort of what I'm looking to understand. My normal preference for a Saison is be to pitch at the end or bottling, just because I like the sort of funkiness that is produced with that method.

Stalling would be an inconvenience, but I didn't really give that much thought. If mine stalls, I'd probably pitch the brett at that point, instead of constantly checking the SG.

 

After reading up on brett from the guy at crooked stave plus my limited experience from the last saison with orval dregs i would say at least a week into primary or in secondary.

I suppose that depends on what you want the final beer to taste like. Pitching in primary either right away or after a specific drop in gravity leads to a cleaner brett profile, especially if we're taking trois which will be fruity and tropical. The brett will eat complex sugars as well as esters, the latter the brett will turn into complex barnyard funk according to chad yakobson. The simpler sugars consumed by brett won't yield as much brett character.

After much reading, some of it well above my head I've concluded that my saison in planning (not this one) is getting brux in secondary. I'm not letting the gravity go terminal before i transfer, but i figure that after the sacc creates all the esters the brett can chew on those, the remaining simple sugars and the more complex ones to have a layered brett profile in the finished beer. My 2 cents.

 

How many of those reports come from people who have underpitched? Or underpitched into a 1.080 wort? Yes, there are a lot of reports of stalling, but I suspect that a lot of those come from people who are expecting the yeast to perform on schedule, i.e. done in 2 weeks. There are also reports of no problems with 3724 at "normal" temps (and from people who know what they are doing). I am willing to stipulate that 3724 is "ornery", but I am not sure that we need to be planning on fermentation temps in the 90s.

FWIW, I voted to add in the middle because I have used 644 as the primary and don't want those flavors here. I also pitched when fermentation was done and it did not add very much. I have never used 644 in the middle, but thought that might be the best of both worlds.

For everyone who wants to pitch towards the end, have you ever used 644 this way? Not other brett strains, but 644?

 

I should've probably brought this up much earlier in the planning but given that we're obviously looking at 80°+ temps for 3724 (to counter stalling), is anyone else concerned that those temps wouldn't be ideal for 644 based on strain info from white labs?

It seems to me that brux would be a better candidate for higher temps.