Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #3 - Yeast Timing

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, Jan 6, 2015.

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When should the Brett strain(s) be added?

Poll closed Jan 7, 2015.
  1. In primary, sometime before attenuation with the Sacch strain(s) is complete.

    62.9%
  2. In primary or secondary, but after attenuation with the Sacch strain(s) is complete.

    17.7%
  3. At bottling.

    19.4%
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  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    The previous poll (#2) determined that we'll use a Saccharomyces strain(s), followed by a Brettanomyces strain(s).

    This poll will determine the timing. The Sacch strain(s) will obviously be pitched at the beginning of primary fermentation. This poll will determine at what point the Brett strain(s) will be pitched.

    This poll will be open for 36 hours. Straight plurality wins this one. If your first choice is losing miserably, consider jumping ship to your second choice before the poll is closed. The new poll format allows it.

    (For those who don't know what I'm talking about, see these threads for the first two beers we did (and the bazillion ensuing polls and the final recipes...
    http://beeradvocate.com/community/threads/the-averagely-perfect-american-ipa-project.59552/
    http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/averagely-perfect-american-stout-poll-1-abv.131209/ )

    Issues with methodology? Take 'em to beermail please.

    The Averagely Perfect Saison so far...

    Yeast: Saccharomyces strain(s), followed by Brettanomyces strain(s)
     
  2. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,378) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    Just wanted to make sure people see this.
     
  3. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    My experience is that Brett is wonderful when used under pressure, and creates wonderful aromatics quicker than when added to a fermentor. That being said, the ability to bottle w/ Brett really is dependent on the FG of the beer which we don't know yet.
     
    MrOH, ChrisMyhre and FeDUBBELFIST like this.
  4. FeDUBBELFIST

    FeDUBBELFIST Meyvn (1,068) Oct 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

    I voted to add Brett before primary fermentation is complete as, I believe, this will give us more Brett character in a shorter amount of time.
     
    checktherhyme likes this.
  5. FeDUBBELFIST

    FeDUBBELFIST Meyvn (1,068) Oct 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

    If adding Brett at packaging wins, what would be the target FG from the sach fermentation for say, 3.0-3.4 volumes of co2? (Keggers will definitely be off the hook is FG is missed.)
     
  6. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Those targets would be TBD in later polls. Put another way, if bottle-at-bottling were selected, future polls would recognize that and the instructions would encourage voting, and discussion, in that context.
     
    jbakajust1 likes this.
  7. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    Is the FG really going to vary given the way most (all?) saison yeasts behave? I guess it depends on the grain bill, but I would not think bottling with brett would be a major problem.
     
    MrOH likes this.
  8. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    I voted to add the brett before fermentation is finished, something like 3724 for a week then add the brett should make for a tasty beer.
     
  9. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,378) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    With the exception of when I've used 3726, I've yet to have a saison finish above 1.004, even with OGs north of 1.070 and crystal in the grainbill for my Christmas ales.
     
    antlerwrestler19 likes this.
  10. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    @wspscott @MrOH I totally agree, but as a crowd sourced recipe with the possibility of fairly new brewers who want to make a funky Saison trying to brew this recipe, I thought it wise to throw it out there that there is the possibility of creating bottle bombs if Brett is added at bottling w/o reaching a low enough FG. Those of us who have been doing this longer will make starters, use temp control, and be patient (if we choose 3724, I really hope we do) to achieve the FG the recipe calls for. Others might just pitch a 3 month old packet of yeast then try to bottle it with Brett after 2 weeks.
     
    wspscott, MrOH and ChrisMyhre like this.
  11. jlordi12

    jlordi12 Devotee (454) Jun 8, 2011 Massachusetts

    Option A or B both seem fine to me. I don't have any experience with adding at bottling, nor do I want to bottle!
     
  12. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    Option A.. I figure that to be as close to "co-pitch"..
     
  13. Smw356

    Smw356 Initiate (0) Jan 14, 2013 Ohio

    I think the specific saison yeast and brett being used here might actually dictate the timing. For example if using 3724 and wyeast brett lambicus( that doesnt like high temps) We'd definitely not want to pitch the brett till we've cooled the beer down down from the temps the saison yeast wants to operate at otherwise we'll end up getting a lot nasty stuff from the brett at those temps.

    So it might be worth visiting yeast selection first, then revisiting the timing.
     
    scurvy311 likes this.
  14. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    That's a possibility. If there's enough support to do that between now and the next poll. Feel free to discuss!
     
  15. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,378) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    True enough. Given that line of thought, though, do we really want noobs playing around with brett at all?
     
  16. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    That would have to be up to them individually of course, but if we want the averagely PERFECT Saison, then Brett is in the mix.
     
  17. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,378) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    So, as perfect as the average brewer can muster, instead of the average of perfect execution.
     
  18. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    I'd say perfect recipe construction based on average of brewers input, but each brewer is able to brew said recipe to the best of their ability. From past threads on how the IPA and Stout were executed, there were brewer tweeks done to the recipe.
     
    PortLargo likes this.
  19. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    That is a good point, but we don't have to ferment 3724 in the 90s, we just have to be patient like @jbakajust1 suggested. Or in other words, we can't agree/vote to do dumb shit :slight_smile:

    I would think that choosing specific yeasts first then deciding on specific timings makes the most sense. We might also want to think about fermentation temps before we decide when to add the brett.
     
  20. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,378) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    But you have previously stated that you preferred the results of brett under pressure (which, to me, in the realm of homebrewing, would either mean at bottling or in a closed fermentor, i.e. keg condititioning). Then you say that a lot of folks can't be trusted to ensure a tricky sacc fermentation is carried out properly, but let's go ahead and toss some brett into the mix, which everyone agrees on isn't for everyone. Seems to me that the best way to ensure a proper product would be to handle the medium-difficulty task well, and then have the advanced shit completely optional at packaging.
    FWIW, I don't want this to turn into one of those @VikeMan vs. @JackHorzempa threads.
    I just think that you can have an awesome saison with just sacc if you know what you're doing, and if you want to step it up a notch from there, add another layer of complexity by bottling with brett.
     
  21. jlordi12

    jlordi12 Devotee (454) Jun 8, 2011 Massachusetts

    FWIW it doesn't look like Brett @ bottling is going to win so it probably a moot point.
     
  22. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (1,819) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Society Trader

    So when we start polling for strains can brett brux trois be used as our sacc strain?
    :grimacing:
     
    wspscott, MrOH, FeDUBBELFIST and 2 others like this.
  23. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Poo-Bah (2,511) May 21, 2010 Texas
    Society

    I don't get it. What's this all about? Can I have a personal re-hash of all 72 bzillion previous polls and their significance/implications/ramifications thereof? With pictures and diagrams? :rolling_eyes:
     
  24. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    @MrOH I agree on all points. Looks like I might have confused the situation a little. Yes, a good Saison can be made with only Sacc. Personally I prefer them with Brett and believe it is more to style (it is also no secret that I can't stand a very popular/less finicky yeast used to make Saisons). I also prefer the character of Brett at bottling as opposed to in secondary. Thus my voting. At this point the recipe has been voted for Sacc with Brett added at some point (determined by this poll) after the initial pitching of the Sacc. My concern was that although I prefer Brett at bottling and voted as such, that this could potentially cause issues for some brewers who are not as experienced in these things creating bottle bombs by adding Brett to a beer that is not fully fermented and sticking it into standard (and reused) bottles.

    I think some of the breakdown here might also be coming from our understanding of how these threads work. I am looking at them as the collective thought of the whole to construct a recipe for a said style that will be the best damn IPA/A.Stout/Saison you've ever tasted (as the IPA is touted to be). This is different than designing a recipe for a fairly good IPA/A.Stout/Sasion that is accessible to brewers of all degree of abilities. Inevitably if we as a whole created the best damn Saison you've ever tasted then anyone who comes to the site will want to make it, and there is the possiblilty of the bottle bombs if bottling with Brett was chosen (or if they don't let the Brett finish up in secondary for that matter).

    Really not trying to get into a back and forth, hopefully this clears up any miscommunication. After reading back through our previous responses, I didn't see where I was disagreeing with you, so hopefully this clears it up.
     
    ChrisMyhre likes this.
  25. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    I think people need to keep in mind, the recipes will not end up being EVERYTHING you want in a beer, they have never been that. What they have been, is a recipe that is sourced by others, based on their own findings, and wants/needs, or to just troll, even.

    However, no one is forced to brew these beers. I'd be willing to bet.. with all the banter from some, that they have NEVER brewed the IPA or the Stout. Not saying they won't brew the Saison, but no one is forcing someone to use any of the recipe, or all of the recipe.

    I think new brewers to AG, or extract even, could take some notes of what people like and don't like, and at the end, can look at the grist and hopping and have a pretty good ground floor recipe for a great saison. Sacch or Brett, included.

    Our IPA recipe, would be fantastic with Brett Brux Trois in it, I bet.. We didn't vote to use Brett in it.. ( or not brett, whichever they say it is).

    Regardless, the recipes have always had twist and turns that could be left out. Such as the toasted oats in the last recipe. I felt they didn't do shit early on. With about 2 gallons left in the keg, I can say the oats really lended a caramel toasted note to the beer with some age and the hops falling off.

    Just roll with it, folks.
     
  26. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    You've got my interest peaked now. I have had 3726 finish at 1.008 (1.040 OG) and 1.005 (1.040 OG) and 1.004 (1.050 OG), as well as 1.011 when used in the APA Stout sans roasted malts. I have had 3724 stop at 1.008 once. All my Saisons are lower OG. What kinds of FG have you had with 3726?
     
  27. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    I am going to be pretty pissed if/when people vote for 3711 because it is "easy"
     
  28. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    I think the IPA would be awesome with 644, might have to try it.

    I just re-tapped one of my partial kegs of the stout, I still like the beer, but I don't think toasting the oats did anything for that beer. :slight_smile:
     
  29. redmaw

    redmaw Initiate (180) Jun 30, 2013 Pennsylvania

    I thought the point of these threads was to see what kind of beer the general wisdom would create as a measure of how much you should follow the things everyone says you should do.
     
  30. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,378) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    Looking back on my notes, I should've kept better notes. The only things Brewtoad carried over from Hopville (outside of the software expectations) were the brewdates. 3726 was the only yeast that I personally recall not going as low as hoped. That being said, I recall it still always ended up below 1.010, and I enjoyed the finished results. Sorry, I've depended too much on memory for this. It served me well for my career (cook turned cheesemonger. Ask me about cheese!!), and now I rely on it, as taste memory (and the ability to express it) counts for more in my field than documentation. I also think that 3726 throws off more bubblegum than I prefer, but that it fades in time, and that 3725 has a weird grape-soda ester that I don't like at all. 3724 us dope for a "classic" saison (earthy, fruity, spicy) if you have the patience, and 3711 is good if you're looking to do something with a lot of late hops or spicing, but otherwise falls flat. Belle Saison is like a more boring, dry version of 3711. I really dig the Mangrove Jack's Belgian Ale as a saison yeast, it has a nice melon ester to it, otherwise, somewhere between 3711 and 3724. Haven't tried wlp566 or wlp585, but I've heard good things. Wlp565 was very similar to 3724 to me, maybe a bit less expressive. Hopefully, this can be referred to in later threads...

    So far as the bottling with Brett, I'm in agreement. I just think that Brett at any point for someone who doesn't know how to ensure a completed fermentation is asking for trouble, and that adding it at bottling is the best way to minimize any hazards. If you can't expect someone to ensure that a sacc fermentation is complete before bottling with brett, how can you expect them to ensure the same with a mixed culture fermentation?

    I think we're arguing the same point from different angles. I'm gonna RDWHAHB.
     
    jbakajust1 likes this.
  31. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (1,819) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Society Trader

    And that's when you lie and say you use it but really roll with DuPont...
     
  32. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,931) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    MrOH posted: “So far as the bottling with Brett, I'm in agreement. I just think that Brett at any point for someone who doesn't know how to ensure a completed fermentation is asking for trouble, and that adding it at bottling is the best way to minimize any hazards. If you can't expect someone to ensure that a sacc fermentation is complete before bottling with brett, how can you expect them to ensure the same with a mixed culture fermentation?”

    I have brewed with Brett twice where I co-pitched the Brett. I will readily confess that on both of those batches I was concerned about the potential for bottle bombs and I purposefully monitored both of those batches looking for signs of overcarbonation. I usually wait at least two week before opening the first bottle but for those batches I actually opened the first bottle sooner to make sure the bottles were not overcarbonating. I would then make sure to open a bottle periodically (e.g., once a week) to make sure that everything was OK. Both of those batches turned out fine with no bottle bombs but I figured an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

    I should mention that I let the beers sit in the primary fermenter on both of those batches for quite some time, over 4 weeks.

    Cheers!
     
  33. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I'm doing just that the weekend of the 17th-18th! Really looking forward to it.
     
  34. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    I would probably do a split batch just to see what happens, but I would still be pissed about the 3711 :slight_smile:
     
    SFACRKnight likes this.
  35. FeDUBBELFIST

    FeDUBBELFIST Meyvn (1,068) Oct 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

    I kind of think it would be safer/easier for a less experienced brewer to succeed with a mixed fermentation (sach/Brett) and using table sugar to prime rather than a doing sach fermentation, brewing to/predicting the correct FG, and relying on Brett to "prime" via consuming the remaining fermentables (keggers notwithstanding). Are you thinking about it from a different angle?
     
  36. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,378) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    My angle is that after a proper fermentation with a saison strain, there isn't enough sugar left for brett to produce an appreciable amount of CO2. Therefore, wait, and add brett at packaging. Folks who keg instead of bottle can keg condition the beer.
    For instance, I finally bottled this today: https://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/hogfather-2
    FG was 1.001. Granted, it hung out for quite a bit more than I planned on, but a pellicle never developed in either the primary or the secondary, so I doubt there was anything besides the sacc fermenting in there. Note that there is 9% crystal in that recipe. Added a vial of Brett C to the bottling bucket, primed for 2.8 volumes, and by next christmas, I should have a showstopper. Anyhow you look at it, patience is a virtue with a saison.
     
  37. FeDUBBELFIST

    FeDUBBELFIST Meyvn (1,068) Oct 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

    I see where we are thinking about things differently.

    You're saying: anticipate a sach-only fermentation gets your FG close to 1.000, then add Brett and priming sugar as you normally would at bottling. With FG ~1.000, the priming results are predictable.

    I'm saying: a mixed fermentation *should be* easier just because there is a better chance of reaching an FG closer to 1.000 (see jbakajust1's FG's above - 1.004, 1.005, 1.008, etc.) Sure, at FG ~1.000, it's easy to add the correct amount of priming sugar. But at FG ~1.008, I wouldn't feel expect Brett to prime to the desired level of co2, then stop eating sugars all of a sudden.
     
    #37 FeDUBBELFIST, Jan 7, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2015
  38. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,378) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    Yep, I see your point of view as well. We'll just agree to disagree.
     
  39. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    And the winner is...
    In primary, sometime before attenuation with the Sacch strain(s) is complete.
     
  40. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Poo-Bah (2,511) May 21, 2010 Texas
    Society

    I dunno, the averagely perfect IPA came out friggin' awesome. And that was without taking into account my less than favorable water chemistry (too much CaCO3). I was less enthralled with the stout, but oddly I don't have any of them left either. :stuck_out_tongue:
     
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