Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #28 - IBU Target?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, Feb 20, 2015.

?

Select an IBU Target (Tinseth formula)

Poll closed Feb 22, 2015.
  1. 18

    12.5%
  2. 20

    14.6%
  3. 22

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. 24

    35.4%
  5. 26

    4.2%
  6. 28

    8.3%
  7. 30

    18.8%
  8. 32

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. 34

    4.2%
  10. 36

    2.1%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    The previous poll (#27) determined that there will be no spices used.

    This poll (#28) will determine an IBU target, standard Tinseth calculation. If you want a value not listed, write it in.

    When this poll is done, I will look at the data a few different ways to determine the central tendency. It may or may not be as simple as a plurality would indicate. There may or may not be a runoff. It all depends on the data.

    I recommend you think about this in terms of not only your personal preferences, but also in the context of the recipe so far. Design the best beer you can, given what's already been decided. Resist the urge to try to steer the recipe back toward a beer that might be impossible. Also, I strongly suspect many folks have not made a beer quite like this recipe (so far) before, so please discuss the options at length.

    This poll will be open for 48 hours.

    (For those who don't know what I'm talking about, see these threads for the first two beers we did (and the bazillion ensuing polls and the final recipes...
    http://beeradvocate.com/community/threads/the-averagely-perfect-american-ipa-project.59552/
    http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/averagely-perfect-american-stout-poll-1-abv.131209/ )

    Issues with methodology? Take 'em to beermail please.

    The Averagely Perfect Saison so far...

    Batch Size: 5 Gallons
    ABV: 5.7%
    OG: 1.045
    FG: 1.002
    Mash Recommendation: Single Infusion @ 150F, 60 Minutes, no Mashout
    Assumed Mash Efficiency: 70%
    90 Minute Boil
    IBUs: TBD (this poll)

    Grain Bill:
    Belgian Pilsner Malt (68%)
    Flaked Wheat (17%)
    Vienna malt (15%)


    Yeasts:
    WLP565/Wyeast 3724 at beginning of fermentation
    WLP644, 0.5 Liter Starter Recommended, added to primary when beer/wort reaches gravity of 1.033
     
  2. ChrisMyhre

    ChrisMyhre Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2013 Massachusetts

  3. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    18 IBU.


    On a beer that is so yeast centric, I feel as if ibus don't matter and should be low. Fermentation will prevail.


    I
     
  4. epic1856

    epic1856 Initiate (0) Aug 11, 2006 California

    I'm hoping this goes in the 20-25 IBU range. You guys gotta remember that with the expected FG of 1.002 it is going to be more bitter than you think so I would keep the IBU at no more than .5 BU:GU.
     
    FeDUBBELFIST, pweis909 and ChrisMyhre like this.
  5. OddNotion

    OddNotion Zealot (585) Nov 1, 2009 New Jersey

    I voted for 20 ibu - want to keep this one low.
     
    FeDUBBELFIST likes this.
  6. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    18, for reasons already mentioned. I want to taste yeast flavors, and if it is going to be dry, lower hops should help with balance.
     
    FeDUBBELFIST likes this.
  7. NiceFly

    NiceFly Initiate (0) Dec 22, 2011 Tajikistan

    18. If there was a lower number I would vote for it.
    I think 10 IBUs are plenty for this lightweight.
    Think hefe.
     
    pweis909 likes this.
  8. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    I like my Saisons around .6 BU:GU. To low and the finish is just bland.
     
    #8 jbakajust1, Feb 20, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
    ChrisMyhre likes this.
  9. epic1856

    epic1856 Initiate (0) Aug 11, 2006 California

    You're shooting for 27 IBUs, right? Just want to make it clear that you're not advocating anything higher than that in case people don't want to do the math on what .6 BU:GU is in IBU for this recipe.
     
    jbakajust1 likes this.
  10. sjverla

    sjverla Disciple (397) Dec 1, 2008 Massachusetts

    Changed my vote from 22 to 24 to put it out in the lead more decidedly. I think a little bit of a bite would be nice, but certainly wouldn't go any higher.
     
    PortLargo likes this.
  11. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    Voted for 30

    It seems obvious, but IBUs are different from lots of hops flavors. We could have 30 IBUs from Magnum added at the beginning of the boil and still taste the yeast. This poll is not asking about hop bursting or anything like that.

    In addition, water profiles (sulfates) are going to matter here as well.
     
  12. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    27-30 IBUs would be right around where I would want it on this beer.
     
    ChrisMyhre likes this.
  13. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (1,819) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Society Trader

    Saison DuPont sits around 28 to 30... jus sayin... :rolling_eyes:
     
    ChrisMyhre and wspscott like this.
  14. FeDUBBELFIST

    FeDUBBELFIST Meyvn (1,068) Oct 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

    It's also nearly a full percentage point higher in ABV than our beer is:wink:
     
  15. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    Does ABV matter or FG when we are thinking about IBUs?

    DuPont's FG is likely very close to what we are aiming for.
     
  16. epic1856

    epic1856 Initiate (0) Aug 11, 2006 California

    It does, but it has to do with perceived bitterness than the actual bitterness. This website explains better than I can;

    http://www.madalchemist.com/relative_bitterness.html
     
    FeDUBBELFIST likes this.
  17. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    Yeah, but that seems to be arguing that it is attenuation and FG that matters not ABV which was the point I was trying to make to @FeDUBBELFIST
     
  18. epic1856

    epic1856 Initiate (0) Aug 11, 2006 California

    Early straw poll results are in
    Average: 24.9
    Median: 24
    Mode: 24
     
  19. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (1,819) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Society Trader

    Looks like im gonna dryhop the hell out of this.
     
  20. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    I voted 20.. Usually keep it under 25 on my saisons.

    I planned to dryhop as well, depending on what we do for hop varieties.
     
  21. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia


    Great points.. I think we should also get a water profile together for this beer as well..
     
    Naugled and ChrisMyhre like this.
  22. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    Who gave you permission to dryhop? :slight_smile:

    Have you ever dryhopped a saison? What hops? I have done some "hoppy saisons" but for some reason never thought about dryhops.
     
    SFACRKnight likes this.
  23. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Aspirant (246) Dec 3, 2005 Louisiana

    I have had great results using BrewCipher's built in targets. Solid push for "Vikeman's Blonde Ale" targets.
     
    FATC1TY likes this.
  24. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Aspirant (246) Dec 3, 2005 Louisiana

    Funny. Out of the 6-8 saisons I've brewed, I've only not dry hopped one. Citra was my favorite, but the last few have been a big New Zealand dry hop delivery system.
     
    wspscott likes this.
  25. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia


    I use Brewcipher as well.. can't recall any built in targets other than the blonde ale...
     
  26. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia


    Indeed.. I normally brew my white wine saison and it's pretty awesome dryhopped with some nelson.
     
    SFACRKnight, wspscott and Prospero like this.
  27. Prospero

    Prospero Savant (972) Jul 27, 2010 Colorado
    Trader

    Amarillo dry-hopping w/ a saison is where it's at!
     
    ChrisMyhre likes this.
  28. PortLargo

    PortLargo Devotee (484) Oct 19, 2012 Florida

    but for some reason never thought about dryhops.

    Oh ye of a sheltered brew-life . . .
    You could argue that dh'ing a saison is not to style, but the results are so good that naysayers will struggle. Dupont uses mild euro hops (Triskell/Challenger) and can not meet demand. I favor the bolder American hops which can really compliment (IMO).

    I've only not dry hopped one. Citra was my favorite

    That's the spirit, and ditto the Citra which gives it an early lead. Vikeman is pretty good about letting the group go in a chosen direction . . . for the dh poll the Hop-Head mafia will certainly be ready for the task.
     
    SFACRKnight, jbakajust1 and scurvy311 like this.
  29. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Aspirant (246) Dec 3, 2005 Louisiana

    I think the "selection" comes in after you pick the style on the recipe page. It does not have a drop down of all of the profiles, just the one appropriate for the style. So if I selected Doppelbock, "Generic Big Amber Lager" is in the drop down on the water tab. If I select Kolsch, "Generic Big Amber Lager" is replaced by something else. I'm not sure if limiting the choices per style to one is on purpose, but I certainly am not complaining.
     
  30. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    That's exactly how it works. You can (if you are using Excel rather than OpenOffice) also add your own profiles on the UserH20Profiles tab. Those user added profiles are then always available in the dropdown (regardless of style selected).
     
  31. FeDUBBELFIST

    FeDUBBELFIST Meyvn (1,068) Oct 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

    OG & FG (and consequently apparent attenuation & ABV) are all important in determining bittering levels in a recipe. However, after you questioned whether ABV or FG was more important - and after reading epic1856's link - I concede that FG is probably more important than the % ABV in this regard. Thank you for helping me look at that differently.

    In my mind (however now to a smaller degree), you still need to think about IBU's in terms of ABV. A balanced beer needs bitterness to balance the sweetness - whether it be real or perceived. The Mad Alchemist points out that a lower FG (greater apparent attenuation) results in more perceived bitterness. What helped me change my mind is that, whether real or perceived, when it comes to making great beer, I believe that perceived bitterness trumps real bitterness every time. In other words, who cares what the real bitterness is, if what I'm tasting seems "right" ?

    Bringing this back to the recipe that we're developing, I still think we want to keep the bitterness lower than the 24 IBUs winning the pole right now. I voted for 20 prior to reading the Mad Alchemist link, mainly because I prefer lower bitterness in lower alcohol, more sessionable beers. And after crunching the numbers, our saison at 24 IBUs is headed to be more bitter than Saison Dupont is, which would be the high-end threshold for bittering rates for this beer, IMO.

    I'm basing this on a few assumptions and a few facts. Saison Dupont is:
    OG - 1.054
    FG - 1.004
    ABV - 6.5%
    IBUs - 28 (Various reports from 25-30 but 28 comes up most often)
    BU:GU --> 28:54 or .52
    Apparent Attenuation - 92.5%

    For comparison, our recipe so far is:
    OG - 1.045
    FG - 1.002
    ABV - 5.7%
    IBUs - 24 (if 24 wins)
    BU:GU --> 24:45 or .53
    Apparent Attenuation - 95.5% (thus more perceived bitterness)

    Using the Mad Alchemist's Relative Bitterness Ratio calculator (RBR), whether you trust in this idea or not, Saison Dupont lands at .603 while our recipe lands at .630. The higher the number, the higher the perceived bitterness. All of this said, I don't know if the RBR is proven or even accurate, but that's where the numbers stand. Just some food for thought.
     
    #31 FeDUBBELFIST, Feb 21, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2015
  32. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Median: 24
    Mode: 24
    Mean: 24.9

    Close enough. 24.
     
  33. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (1,819) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Society Trader

    I have always dryhopped my saisons. I have used citra, chinook (yeah, chinook), nelson, saaz, and hallertauer. Nelson worked well with the same yeasts we are using here, had quite the "juicy" effect on the beer, like some glorious tropical punch. The chinook and citra hops were used on American farmhouse styles fermented with wlp677 American farmhouse. the one I did with saaz and hallertauer was awesome in a traditional Belgian sort of way.
     
    wspscott likes this.
  34. ChrisMyhre

    ChrisMyhre Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2013 Massachusetts

    Amarillo makes for an awesome Saison dry hop, I was actually planning on trying Simcoe in the Saison I kegged over the weekend, but a sample tasted so good I skipped the dry hop altogether. I do tend to prefer Brett or dry hopping, not both.
     
  35. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (1,819) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Society Trader

    Brett and hops go very well together. "Brett brux trois" goes well with American hops, and so does brett c (I believe.).
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.