Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #43 - Fermentation Temp Approach

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, Mar 21, 2015.

?

Select a fermentation temperature approach

Poll closed Mar 23, 2015.
  1. Single steady temperature

    18.8%
  2. Start low and ramp up to a target over some period

    71.9%
  3. Start low and step increase to a target after some period

    9.4%
  4. Other (write it in)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
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  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Poll #42 determined that there will be no recommended starter for the new Brett strain/pitch timing.

    This poll and subsequent polls will determine fermentation temp profile. This one in particular will determine the approach. Given the two yeast strains selected, this choice may have a significant impact on flavor. Discussion is encouraged.

    This is a simple plurality vote. If your first choice is losing, consider jumping to your second.

    For those looking ahead, after these polls will be the Water polls.

    This poll will be open for 48 hours.

    (For those who don't know what I'm talking about, see these threads for the first two beers we did (and the bazillion ensuing polls and the final recipes...
    http://beeradvocate.com/community/threads/the-averagely-perfect-american-ipa-project.59552/
    http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/averagely-perfect-american-stout-poll-1-abv.131209/ )

    Issues with methodology? Take 'em to beermail please.

    The Averagely Perfect Saison so far...

    Batch Size: 5 Gallons
    ABV: 5.7%
    OG: 1.045
    FG: 1.002
    Mash Recommendation: Single Infusion @ 150F, 60 Minutes, no Mashout
    Assumed Mash Efficiency: 70%
    90 Minute Boil
    IBUs: 24

    Grain Bill:
    Belgian Pilsner Malt (68%)
    Flaked Wheat (17%)
    Vienna malt (15%)

    Yeasts:
    WLP565/Wyeast 3724 and WLP650, co-pitched [no starter for the Brett]

    Hops:
    60 Minutes - Saaz and Hallertau, approx. 15 IBUs, Split 50/50
    10 Minutes - 0.75 ounces Saaz , 0.75 ounces Hallertau
    Flameout/Whirlpool/Hopstand - 0.75 ounces Saaz, 0.75 ounces Hallertau
     
  2. PortLargo

    PortLargo Devotee (484) Oct 19, 2012 Florida

    @VikeMan: A little help please. Not sure I understand the difference between "ramp up to a target" and "step increase to a target". Could you elaborate?
     
  3. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Ramp = more or less continuous, evenly sloped rise over time
    Step = all at once (or as fast as possible)

    Think continuous function vs step function.
     
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  4. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    For practical purposes, the difference between ramp and step is how quickly you want to get to the final temp. I'm thinking the saison strain wants to start in the high 60s and finish in the low 80s. Over what time frame?
     
  5. are_doubleyou

    are_doubleyou Initiate (0) Aug 3, 2014 Illinois

    I brewed a lot of saisons last summer because I was busy and my setup wasn't such that I could keep temps low enough to use other yeast strains. Every time I pitched at about 68F in the evening and by noon the next day we were looking at about 80F. They all turned out great.

    I'm not sure if that counts as a ramp or a step, but I voted ramp.
     
  6. ChrisMyhre

    ChrisMyhre Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2013 Massachusetts

    I think I voted ramp in error, I believe that allowing the temperature to free rise to the desired level would be step? I don't think a slower rise would be beneficial for any reason that I can think of. Are people thinking something else or just confused?
     
  7. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    I can see why this could be confusing. So, when words fail...

    [​IMG]

    So, I would call a pitch and free rise a ramp.
    Pitch, hold steady, then increase would be a step.
     
    #7 VikeMan, Mar 21, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2015
  8. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Disciple (393) May 2, 2006 Utah

    Why not exponential, log, or sinusoidal time dependence possibilities? Seems like the choices are kind of limited here. :rolling_eyes:
     
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  9. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,931) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Whatcha think about a hyperbolic temperature rise?

    Cheers!
     
    utahbeerdude likes this.
  10. RashyGrillCook

    RashyGrillCook Initiate (0) Apr 30, 2011 Florida

    So......the difference between a ramp up and step up is the amount of time? Where is the line in the sand?

    For those doing ramp ups, how are you achieving a long linear transition from one temp to the next?
     
  11. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,931) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    The classic way to achieve a linear transition is to pitch at a lower than intended fermentation temperature and permit the heat producing action of the yeast to bring up the temperature of the fermenting beer. The heat producing action (an exothermic reaction) will typically raise the fermenting beer about 5 degrees above ambient. If you want the fermenting temperature to be greater than about 5 degrees above ambient than some sort of heating will need to be employed (e.g., putting a heat belt on your fermenter).

    Cheers!
     
  12. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    No. Not just that. If you pitch and hold that temperature steady, then increase it later, that's a step. If you pitch and let/make it rise from the beginning, that's a ramp. Also, note this difference in words in the poll choices...

    - Start low and ramp up to a target over some period
    - Start low and step increase to a target after some period

    And notice the difference in this pic...
    [​IMG]
    See the flat part at the beginning of the step?
     
  13. NiceFly

    NiceFly Initiate (0) Dec 22, 2011 Tajikistan

    Not a good approach, we would never achieve the final temp:stuck_out_tongue:
     
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  14. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    Folks.. think about it this way..

    Pitch at a certain temp.. lets all say.. 66*... and then you do nothing to it but keep it at room temp, say 70*.. That would be ramp.

    Step, we pitch at 66*.. give it 5 days, raise it to 69, hold it for a few day and then allow it to rise to whatever temp it is sitting at.

    Ramp=less work.
    Step= you need temp control.
     
  15. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    As a tamper with temp control I can also do incremental steps every 12 hours from any temp up to any temp. Just bump the temp up 1℃ before work, and after dinner.
     
    PortLargo likes this.
  16. RashyGrillCook

    RashyGrillCook Initiate (0) Apr 30, 2011 Florida

    I see what your saying. I asked because I have never seen ramp up and step up differentiated in this manner in any of the homebrew forums or publications. In my usual manner of bickering over petty semantics, you could switch over and after in the selections and it would change the meaning of ramp up vs step up(but that's beside the point).

    If a temp in the 80s is selected can free rising/ramp up achieve that high of an exothermic reaction? Especially considering the low OG of 1.045. I imagine if a pitch temp of 68 is selected and a target temp of 80 is also selected than some external temperature influence will be needed.
    Say you live somewhere hot and your ambient is ~80 I could see chilling down to pitch temp and then letting rise back to ambient. However, my house is mostly 60-65 ambient year round.
     
  17. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    I imagine so too.
     
  18. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Start low and ramp up to a target over some period, FTW.
     
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