Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #9 - Consider Adjuncts?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, Jan 16, 2015.


What types of adjuncts, if any, should we consider in the fermentables polls?

Poll closed Jan 17, 2015.
  1. Unmalted Grains

  2. Non Grain Adjuncts

  3. Both

  4. Neither

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  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,964) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    The previous poll (#8) determined that the FG target will be 1.002 (with an OG of 1.045).

    This poll (#9) will determine if we will include any adjuncts in the fermentables polls. You can vote to consider Unmalted Grains (like flaked wheat, for example) and/or Non Grain Adjuncts (like simple sugars, candi syrups, etc.). If either (or both) choice(s) gets votes from 50% or more of the voters, then adjuncts or that type will be considered. The votes are additive, e.g. votes for "Unmalted Grains" and votes for "Both" are both counted as votes for Unmalted Grains. I encourage you to consider these questions in the context of the recipe so far, i.e. the yeast strains and the gravity targets, as well as your flavor/mouthfeel preferences.

    This poll will be open for 36 hours.

    (For those who don't know what I'm talking about, see these threads for the first two beers we did (and the bazillion ensuing polls and the final recipes...
    http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/averagely-perfect-american-stout-poll-1-abv.131209/ )

    Issues with methodology? Take 'em to beermail please.

    The Averagely Perfect Saison so far...

    ABV: 5.7%
    OG: 1.045
    FG: 1.002
    Yeast: WLP565/Wyeast 3724, followed by WLP644 in primary, sometime before attenuation is complete (exact timing TBD).

    FeDUBBELFIST Meyvn (1,067) Oct 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Voted for unmalted grain only. With these yeasts, this beer doesnt need any help drying out. And the adjuncts will help keep the FG around our target...in theory anyway. (I honestly don't know if unmalted grains are better at leaving body than adjusting the mash temp upward.) Nonetheless, I don't see sugar or honey etc. adding any worthwhile character here, but I think some flaked rye, wheat or oats can.
  3. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    I voted for nada..

    I have a feeling people will be pushing the brett fermentation, especially us keggers.

    On the flipside, I don't mind leaving some food for bacteria. The OG will be low enough I might be able to pull off 10 gallons. :wink:
  4. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    Agree with @FeDUBBELFIST can't imagine that adding sugar in any form is a good idea. I'm no brett or saison expert, but my reading leads me to believe that something like rye or wheat or maybe spelt could be nice from both a mouthfeel and a flavor point of view.

    What about other malted grains? Rye Malt,... is that a different poll?
  5. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    What do you mean "pushing the brett fermentation"?
  6. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    I have a feeling people will be impatient with allowing the 644 to do it's deal. Luckily, I think the beer will benefit with the fruit notes early, and people will experience the change as time passes.

    The brett won't need a ton of the unfermentables that sach won't be able to handle. I don't feel the need to load this beer up with unmalted grains and adjuncts. We can mash slightly higher, and have a nice clean, crips, funky and fruity saison without them.

    Just my opinion, and I'm game for the outcome, I'm getting ingredients ready as we move on.
    wspscott likes this.
  7. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I voted for non-grain adjuncts...not necessarily because I want to use them...but want to have the option at this point. However, I admit this may be due to my lack of experience with Brett.
  8. psnydez86

    psnydez86 Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2012 Pennsylvania

    jbakajust1 likes this.
  9. ChrisMyhre

    ChrisMyhre Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2013 Massachusetts

    Surprised there are so many votes for unmalted adjuncts. I could see a little wheat.
    PortLargo likes this.
  10. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Devotee (403) May 2, 2006 Utah

    Unmalted grains seem appropriate in a farmhouse kind of beer; thus my vote.
    psnydez86, jbakajust1 and bushycook like this.
  11. PortLargo

    PortLargo Devotee (485) Oct 19, 2012 Florida

    Agree. Just because an ingredient has attributes in some styles doesn't mean it will always work. Saisons traditionally have very simple grain bills. Very simple.
    FATC1TY and ChrisMyhre like this.
  12. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    My feelings really.. I find farmhouse beers to be simple, very simple. The yeast, the time, the environment, will dictate how it comes out. Rustic comes to mind.

    But, hey.. if we can help this beer along, I'm looking for super crushable, simple, clean, crips, ester filled, funky and fruity saison.
    wspscott and ChrisMyhre like this.
  13. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    I voted for unmalted. Flaked wheat or oats would go well with the super low OG and Brett's tendency to break down glycosides and thin out the body. Traditionally Saisons are simple, yes, as stated above, but that simplicity historically included the use of unmalted grains such as oats or wheat.
    machalel, wspscott and FeDUBBELFIST like this.
  14. jae

    jae Initiate (0) Feb 21, 2010 Washington

    We should put some wheat and oats in the mix.
    jbakajust1 likes this.
  15. Lukass

    Lukass Meyvn (1,029) Dec 16, 2012 Ohio

    Unmalted grains. Only because I've used flaked oats in saisons before, with good results.
  16. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    So, does this preclude adding something like wheat or rye? If so, why? All that you described doesn't seem to preclude adding some unmalted grain.
  17. epic1856

    epic1856 Initiate (0) Aug 11, 2006 California

    This poll is asking if we want to use unmalted grain or sugar. So even if we voted no on all of the options we'll still have the ability to vote for in a later poll for
    wheat malt
    rye malt
    oat malt

    I personally like using rye malt to spice things up in my saisons.
    PortLargo likes this.
  18. PortLargo

    PortLargo Devotee (485) Oct 19, 2012 Florida

    I would like to clarify: Old timey Saisons used whatever was grown within a days journey in a wagon. Modern Saisons use simple grain bills. It common to see Pilsner only . . . yep, 100% Pilsner shows up in current top Saisons. When commercial brewers expand the grain bill, typically it will be one or two additions only, anything over is pushing the limit. So while you do see wheat, or rye or spelt or Munich or maybe even unmalted grains, it is not common to add all of these ingredients. Simple is good.

    For the non-grain/both voters; you are talking simple sugars here. But the recipe is a 5.7% beer with a 96% attenuationing yeast. The ship has sailed on making this a higher ABV brew (me standing on the dock). While rock candy, corn/beet sugar, or honey can be delightful in a high ABV Belgian beer, we shouldn't be trying to dry this out anymore. As it stands, for a 1.045 OG beer, we are only looking at about 8 lbs of grain . . . do you sugar voters really want to pull more grain to make room for simple sugars? That's what will happen if sugar is added. This brings up the "what is the minimum grain you can mash" question. I say we need to leave some real meat & potatoes for the yeast to do their job.

    The nature of polling is to keep adding ingredients that have worked in the past. But let's keep this in the context of a moderately low ABV beer with a super-attentuating yeast. Vikeman's averagely-polling allows the members to add just about anything, if enough people write in cacao nibs or dark crystal malt it will end up in the mix. If the format would allow, I would like to see a maximum number of additions allowed. Maybe a little restraint will give us something more tasty.
    machalel, MrOH, JohnSnowNW and 2 others like this.
  19. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    Everything he said: YES! Over course I still stand by my vote for unmalted grains like wheat or oats, maybe rye, but I will be voting for one, maybe two of these with Pils, possibly some Vienna or Munich. I think 1-2 grains besides Pils will be the tops for this. Saison is designed to be expressive and complex from the yeast, not hops and malts.
  20. LakesideBrewing

    LakesideBrewing Initiate (88) Dec 1, 2013 Massachusetts

    This seems like a run away, nice! I always add a little flaked wheat or oats to my saisons. I think it really help the mouthfeel of a highly attenuated beer.
  21. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    I"m okay with flaked oats I guess..

    I DO NOT want rye in this beast... I will make shill accounts to vote rye out. :wink:
    LakesideBrewing and jbakajust1 like this.
  22. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    Don't leave us hanging, why do you hate rye so much? Did it steal your lunch money? :slight_smile:
    jbakajust1 likes this.
  23. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,964) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Okey Doke.
    Unmalted Grains: Possibly In
    Non-Grain Adjuncts: Out
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