Candid Dialogue About Moderation

Why is music/youtube links allowed in certain threads but other non-beer related content is not?

 

I have had ISO's deleted that were different numerous times. Nothing hateful or unfair in any of the posts that I did. They were just deleted.

*I think this was during the release of KBBS '14 where everything was being deleted. I think we are all familiar with that time on the ISO forum.

 

JR-

A few answers to your first set of questions:

1) Minimum of two, preferably three days. You can always change your original ISO, so there's no need to repost it again. Likewise if you're changing beers, change the original ISO. There's need to repost it. It's up to the OP to post when you think it's best going to be seen. It takes intelligent thought on the OP's part to post strategically. If you're not willing to put that effort in, maybe trading isn't for you.

2) Threadjacking is taking the post off-topic. Don't do it.

3) If you really need an answer to this, you probably shouldn't be posting. If the point of your post is to mock, minimize, marginalize or otherwise denigrate the OP or their offer, don't do it. It's not that hard.

For the second set:

1) Answered.

2) Not really. There are still far too may jerk responses to ISOs. "way off" or "no" are useless posts. Post about homers from region a protecting their trade values against region b are worthless. A simple emoticon as a post adds nothing. Posting that "IMO, beer x tastes better than beer y so i wouldn't do this trade" isn't helpful.

If you can"t take the time to be construcive of add something to the conversation...don't.

Post deletion is at our discretion and I'm not about to let things go back to the way they used to be.

3) Some, yes. But that's not the point of the ISO:FT forum and it's not going to turn into an off-topic forum. If you can't be respectful of others, your posts will be removed. Persist an you'll get warned. You know what happens after that.

If that's how you have fun, maybe you need another hobby? Most people here don't appreciate that behavior, so we don't intend to cater to it.

Edit : Also, now that he liked this post , I'm tagging @blue-dream since his moderating duties are limited to the trade forums. He should be part of this discussion too.

 

I think some of the confusion also comes from people deleting their posts and reposting before the 48-72 hour limit, thinking since they deleted it that its ok to repost (mods can see if this is done). And i have seen first hand what people will say to try to get around the rules, as I'm sure @F2brewers can attest.
Another issue is some people might not like what is said about their ISO post or something that is said offended someone they report it, then we as mods have to look and see if it fits the parameters of modification or deletion. But i think as @Todd said before now we have the alert window to tell people what they did or why their post was deleted witch i think will solve a lot questions. Mostly its off-topic, auctions, BM'd you type posts, trolls, reposts, and threadshitters that get deleted.
But all in all its a lot of good people trying to trade great beer, and its a great hobby, its not like we are 12 and trading baseball cards, a lot of BA's are chasing their next whale. Everyone likes to have "fun" but there is a limit to everything when beer trading is involved, some people take it very seriously.
Ok just my 2 cents witch isn't even worth 1/2 cent, cheers and lets have a beer!

 

Thanks for the tag @joromiller! I definitely agree with what you are saying. I find posts such as "tempting" or "i have what you are looking for" or negative feedback said in a polite and cronstructive manner getting deleted. If i'm reading this correctly, the mods aren't seeing this as helpful. But my question is who decides what is helpful and what's not. Shouldn't the person who is posting the ISO:FT get to decide if a post is helpful or not. With the "tempting" comment, OP knows that what he offering is fair and helps him figure out if he wants to add or can lead to OP messaging the commenter and working out a trade.

Comments on the "fairness" of the trade, i think, should remain on the thread, as long as there is no threadshitting or being a dick, but a solid discussion on the merits of the trade can help the OP and the community determine the fairness of the trade and can lead to more trades getting done. Yes, this can be done in the beer trading help forum but most people do not post there before making an ISO:FT thread. Should they? Debatable. Then that forum would be just as "clogged" up as the ISO forum.

Lastly, @F2brewers comment about learning how to strategically post so you get your trades done is a little unsettling. With all due respect, some of us cannot be on BA all day keeping up with all the ISOs. Furthermore, when trading the more rare beer, there aren't as many people who have them and that's when you need the right person to see it. To try to "strategically plan" your posts when you have no idea when those few people who have the beer your ISO will be on and see your post is basically impossible. And to claim that if we can't "strategically" post because we don't have the "intellectual thought" to post at the perfect time so those few people see it is borderline offensive.

I'm not advocating for people throwing up the same ISOs every couple hours, but 12 hours should be more than enough time between posts. That way the morning and the evening crowd can see the post.

These are just some thoughts i have come up with lately.

 

It's up to the mods to decide whether or not a comment is helpful or not.

"Tempting" adds nothing to the ISO and can discourage others from pursing the trade since it can appear as if there's negotiation and/or a deal in progress. If you're interested, send a BM.

Sorry that this makes you unsettlied, but here's the thing...the forum isn't all about catering to each person's individual perceived "needs". The ISO:FT forum is here for the broad spectrum of all users and by and large, everyone needs to be treated equally.

If you're trading "rare" beer, you're frequently in a small or niche minority; it may be more difficult to consummate the trade and maybe the right eyes don't see your ISO before it falls off the first page or two. There are also plenty of traders who look beyond those first few pages, especially if they're looking for a particular item.

It cuts both ways and that's something you need to accept if you're going to trade, especially if you're trading "rare" items.

If people are "offended" because they're asked to take responsibility for their actions, that speaks directly to their character and sense of community and not in a positive fashion.

With regard to timing, reposting every twelve hours about a trade doesn't do anything to help or build the community here...rather, it seeks to advance the perceived "needs" of individuals at the expense of the larger community. It's part of the pervasive, "more, me, now" culture that exists in society.

Sometimes, someone has to say "No" to that culture. It's not that hard a burden to bear on a free anonymous website about beer.

 

I don't participate in the Beer Trading forums - but this attitude is ridiculous.

Making a new post on a duplicate topic is my biggest turn-off with using the forums. The regional forums have the same repeat topics about particular cities because people are too lazy to do a quick search to reference or reply to an already existing thread. The forums exist past the first page.

 

Thanks @joromiller for starting this. A few questions I had have been answered, and I also do think moderators are necessary and help the trading community stay in-check. I have a few questions I think haven't been answered:

1) I've had so many posts taken down on this site, it feels like the moderators clean up your post if it's "too much fun". i.e. I had a friend post on one of my ISO "bring that to our tasting group on Tuesday!" It was harmless, encouraging and most of all, enthusiastic, yet the mods took it down. If you want to survive the social-media revolution that is happening, you need to make room for that harmless stuff, it keeps people interested in your site. I work in social media for a living, people flock to sites or apps, and their number of users grow because of the perceived human connection, inside jokes, and bonds through shared views, I think your moderators kill any sense of that on Beer Advocate. I know it's your site, not mine, your user-numbers are doing just fine without me, but why not allow people to use your site for a human-experience? That's why people are flocking to other trading sites, because of a freedom of speech and they let users keep it fun. Any harmful and malicious stuff is worth the moderators policing, but being more lax on deleting comments help a post get attention and people will check it out. We can still respect beer by having fun with our friends on here. "Respect Beer" is a cool motto but don't kill the fun guys, this site is becoming a beer glossary for most of my friends where we only read reviews of beers, but are fed up with trading on here.

2) if someone screws me over, I've had it happen on this site twice, why do you guys have no system in place to block them? Or at least plead my case and provide proof that I was screwed over to prevent it from happening to other people. I lost over $200 worth of beer to some guy in Florida, he sent NOTHING back, I pleaded my case with the moderators and this guy still has an active account on here. Also, the trade is still considered "open" in your site's eyes.

3) why do your posting settings not allow people to upload pics from their computer or phone, it has to be hosted on a site? I don't see the profit in this.

I love you all,
Jimmie

 

I couldn't agree more. I will often scroll through the ISO:FT looking for threads with comments, not just for the feedback regarding the trade, but for the playful banter that develops.

The fact that you don't participate in the trading forum speaks for itself. The volume of posts in the ISO:FT (Beer Only) section far exceeds it's nearest neighbor in number of threads, to the tune of nearly 9-fold. With 30 posts to a page, on an active day, it may only take a few hours for a post to move a page or two. Take a day where the newest whale is dropping and it may move even quicker, first example that comes to mind was when Assassin dropped this year.

 

I understand there is no simple solution to this. Just simply pointing out the facts to our friend who chimed in without any knowledge of the day-to-day on the beer trading forums.

 

I think you'd be surprised by the number of reports which *are* rejected. I don't have exact stats, but I'd guess it's close to a majority. Some people use it for their own petty little revenge games and while we may get fooled once or twice by that, we do eventually catch on to those kinds of shenanigans.

As a mod, part of the job *is* being in the value assessment business. If you're not comfortable doing so or making unpopular decisions, it's not a smart job choice. As someone whose been here an awful long time and seen these forums develop, crash, burn and redevelop multiple times, I've got a pretty good perspective on that.

The bottom line is that most of the time, tone is important to a comment and there are any number of types and/or manners of responses whose tone doesn't enocurage a downward spiral...those generally stay in place.

It's about approaching this as a reasonable, responsible adult...if you (not directed at mattvandyk, but meant generally) think the thread is off or why it isn't likely to get done, state *why*, but do it in a a positive, constructive way that has at least some objective value. Veering into subjective areas like "beer x tastes way better than beer y" doesn't meet that standard.

You need to think about and respect the OP when you respond. If you don't want to take the time or effort to do so, don't post.

While there is a social interactivity and community aspect to the ISO:FT forums they *aren't* here for individuals' personal amusement or to promote the elitist trading attitude that's become so (unfortunately) embedded in the trader mentality these day.

People want to trade for a beer or a tick and as such, emotions can become enflamed very quickly. It's our job to keep the peace and try to prevent that from happenening. Deleting one or two seemingly (to the average user) comments early is far easier than trying to clean up a train wreck later. Sometimes, that wreck can't be salvaged and as a result, a valid ISO ends up deleted or all comments are purged. That doesn't help anyone.

In short, take responsibility for what you post and be respectful. If you can do that, you'll find there's far less need for moderation.

 

Moderation affects the whole forum, not just one sub-forum. If you're looking for Beer X - what's wrong with using the search function if you don't want to read through more than 1 page?

It's the same attitude that results in a new "Where should I go when I'm visiting Philly?" post every couple of days. I agree with F2brewers' statement above:

 

In this instance, protecting site integrity also goes to the core of protecting user rights and equality. Making these judgments about suitability is critical to achieving that goal.

It's clear from JR's initial post that people are seeking more freedom to play and joke around...and that's not what the ISO forum is about. This isn't about shutting down valid discussion as that's freely permitted. Rather, it's about preventing mockery and abuse of the system. The post that one user makes in jest can easily be misinterpreted as mockery by another...and the downward spiral begins. People are so wound up in themselves and think they're so smart and so superior that they can't step back and realize that what they post may have multiple interpretations to someone else. Tone is notoriously hard to gauge on an internet forum and that's why independent mods without skin in the game need to be both present and proactive.

The criteria to gauge posts have been set based on historical relevancy and operation of the forums. The majority of
complaints come from a small minority of users who feel constrained and don't like to be told that they can't do certain things. That sense of entitlement promotes those individuals above the larger user base and won't be tolerated.

I don't agree with that last sentence for two reasons:

1) Most of the users who are unhappy here are not seeking well thought out discussions...they want a playground where they can josh around with their clicque of "elite" or "most knowledgeable" traders even to the detriment of others.

2) In this forum, intelligent discussions rarely, if ever, emanate from the off-handed nonsensical comment. The point of the ISO forum is to provide an environment for trading/discussion based on the OP's specific ISO. They're not for random trade talk or philosphical discussion of trading...there's a whole separate forum for that. They're meant to be short, sweet and to the point: help the trader complete his/her trade or help them understand why they may have trouble doing so.

Basically, it's a judgement call. Anytime that is involved, people will disagree. And that's fine. It doesn't bother me that some people don't like the way I do this...there are also plenty of people who like it. If there weren't people on both sides, then I'd be worried.

I think you've misinterpreted what I said. We try to proactively eliminate the one or two useless posts before they become the train wreck rather than decimate a broader swath of comments regardless of their utility to the discussion.

I don't see us reevaluating our approach in a significant way. If there were numerous examples of great discussions that came out of ISO:FT, it might be different. But there's no actual evidence to support the idea that that either has (or will) happen. As the popularity of craft beer has increased and the notion of beer having real "value" has skyrocketed, behavior in the ISO forum has declined precipitously.

One thing I will say...whether it's because of moderation activity or not, I've noted a significant uptick in the number of posts within ISO that users delete by *themselves* with a note that says "not helpful" or "makes no sense". That's encouraging. If the quality of user effort in the ISO forum improves, there won't be the need to moderate. So, essentially, the power to achieve this goal lies in the hands of the users.

Fundamentally, the responsibility lies with you all to do a better job taking personal responsibility, acting more maturely and demonstrating that we can back off and let you run the forum yourselves. Personally, I'd prefer that. But right now, that's not how the ISO forum functions.

If you want to make the world a better place, take a look at yourself and make the change.

Holy crap, did I just quote Michael Jackson?

Eddie is disappoint.

You do that, you go to the box, you know. Two minutes, by yourself, you know and you feel shame, you know. And then you get free.

Slap Shot...now that's better.