Does the Beer Trading Feedback System work? Improvements?

@JStampler , I like your idea in that bad trader thread to make it so that feedback is hidden until both parties submit theirs. I think that along with a penalization when failing to leave feedback and an increase in minimum characters for written feedback are the only tweaks we need because, as @tommyz rightly said, the problem is less the actual system and more our failure to use it properly. I feel like these minor adjustments as well as us getting on the same page about being more diligent in regards to leaving neutral/negative feedback could be a solution...for now, anyways.

 

It does not address the point I laid out and what you just said wont work either...People are not using the system right...no change in the system will make people us that one correctly..

 

I've just basically scrolled through most posts here and I'm not smart enough to come up with a great idea to fix the feedback problems...but I can't like this enough. People need not be afraid to be honest.

 

I agree with your point where the main issue is. However, you can't control each individual's willingness to leave the type of feedback everyone suggests. All you can do is tweak the system to favor the overall intended result. No matter what system is, you will still have those that do not use it as intended. The main question is what change (if any) needs to be made to at least attempt to guide towards the intended result/outcome.

 

I think the point that a lot of people are making about the 1-5 scale versus the Negative/Neutral/Positive system is that the system is basically narrowed down to Negative and Positive because Neutral does not impact the overall percentage. I can leave neutral feedback and a reason why but most people don't scroll through the comments left in someone's trade history, they simply look to make sure they have a 100% score so why bother? Neutral has begun to have a negative connotation on this site so people don't leave Neutral feedback for something as minor as shipping a few days late or having spotty communication. I think with a 1-5 scale, people would have a much easier time leaving someone a 4/5 because of those things because a 4/5 is still a positive score. Going further into it, if there were separate ratings for things like Shipping, communication, bottles received, I don't think people would hesitate to give a 3/5 for shipping if someone is a week late and then just leave 5/5 for communication if they were up front and communicating about being late and 5/5 for everything being in the box as advertised. That would still give that trader a 4.33/5 as an overall trade score. I wouldn't hesitate to do that but in this scenario, I certainly wouldn't leave Neutral or Negative feedback, would you?

The problem is, as you said, the feedback system here isn't necessarily broken, it's the way that that system is used that is broken. The only way to correct that is to change the system since no tweaks to the current system will change the way people use it. Positive feedback has become the standard for every trade that is completed, regardless of bad communication, slow shipping, shitty packing, etc. There's no way to reach every BA user to tell them that they need to start leaving more honest feedback or neutral feedback for trades that don't go perfectly smooth. You CAN reach every BA user by changing the system because they will be forced to at least think about it when they see a new system. Again, I think it's as simple as nobody, literally nobody on BA will leave negative or neutral feedback if your partner agreed to ship on Monday but doesn't ship until Thursday but if even half of the people leave a 4/5 rating in that scenario, this new system would at the very least be an improvement. Right now, 100% is pretty much the only feedback score which is really useless.

 

But why, with 100% certainty, should everyone leave negative feedback if this happens? Can't people have different expectations regarding these issues within reason? If someone ships 2 days later in November and it winds up sitting in a cool (temperature) warehouse (not hot, which you seem to be bringing up) does that make it better/worse/same? Or should it still be as negative, or maybe a bit closer to neutral?

There's no one-size fits all solution. Everyone has different expectations and ability to keep up with things. If I can't get to a computer to respond to a message in <24hrs, do I immediately get points docked? Can I get them back if I provide a Drs. note or a explanation that you find believable?

The system has issues because everyone values everything differently. People start topics all the time "Are extras really extras?" or "He said no extras, should I send some anyway?" or "Haven't heard from X in 12hrs, did he steal my beer?". The etiquette is becoming so formulaic you need a book to figure out how to do it right nowadays. If this happens, turns to page 27 to see possible responses.

The solution, for me, is less "Good, Neutral, Bad" and more room for comments. A negative trade sends up a larger red flag than if the reason for "negative" was simply spelled out "Shipped 36hrs late than he said he would, total shitbag IMO."

TL;DR There's no universal definition of good, neutral, bad. But including more facts about the trade should help other people gain information about the person in question.

 

This pretty much sums it up ^^^^^. The only thing I would change is too give more characters to write more feedback for the trader (whether good or bad or neutral). Often if not most of the time, I'm trying to cram feedback with abbreviations because there isn't enough space to give more detail for the *deserving feedback*. I have yet to run into a trader where my feedback left wasn't honest or truthful, as I wish more people would do the same because that's what I reference in making trades, as I'm sure most everyone else does as well. There's nothing wrong with the current system ( IMHO) if we all would just leave honest and appropriate feedback.

 

So you agree with me that all we need is a larger character limit on written feedback, yes?

There ya go.

 

I think everything here is solid. Hiding feedback until both parties have left it and forcing them to leave feedback with some level of written response. Perhaps after a certain period of time has elapsed after accepting a trade and one person leaves feedback, the other party cannot do anything on the site until feedback is left.

 

I agree with the idea more written details about how the trade felt would be more beneficial to me than a simple 1-5 grading scale without any justification as to why the grades were what they were or any universal scale as to what a 1,2,3,4,5 equals. One person's hang ups and pet peeves may not be a big deal for someone else.

If increasing the character limit in fact led to more details about any issues (big or small, positive or negative) being more public, than yes, I would agree with the idea of upping the limit. I just don't think it's a 1-size fits all solution since most people will still write the bare minimum

 

The fb system is as good as the people leaving it. I haven't seen changes proposed that will improve it.

EBay improved its badly abused fb system with one big, fundamental change. Sellers can no longer hold buyers hostage regarding fb. The fine tuning & adding categories were useful changes, but what made the biggest difference was making the fb significantly one sided, which encourages buyers to leave negative fb when it's warranted.

BA can't make such a fundamental change. When trading, both parties are shipping & receiving, ideally simultaneously.

BA is an exceptionally nice community. People are understandably reluctant to diss each other & bend over backwards to be accommodating. Most of the time it works, though there seems to be a recent increase in bad trader threads, including traders who previously had dozens of + fb.

 

May I direct your attention to this thread: http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/bad-trader-nvp0717.352335/

Scroll down to RayOhioFelton's last post where he describes a situation in which his trading partner was slacking on shipping and communication and ultimately came through with plenty of extras but Ray did not leave proper (IMO) feedback because of a lack of space to fully explain the details. This seems to me to be validation of the point others and myself have been trying to make in this thread that the character minimum must be raised in the written feedback text box. Only then will we have the ability to be clear and concise with our feedback, regardless of it being positive, neutral or negative since it's obvious we all have widely varying opinions on what constitutes each.

 

A higher character limit for the feedback comment isn't a bad idea, but I'd advocate for more detail on the ratings, something like Good/Neutral/Bad for each of Communication, Packaging, Shipping, and Overall Experience, as people have suggested. That can be easily compiled into a rating for the trade and an overall rating for the user. Also the Good/Neutral/Bad in each category could be marked with a color (green/yellow/red?), making it much easier to quickly scan through someone's feedback to spot any issues. Way more likely to be noticed than details in a long comment.

 

I am curious, for those saying that we need more characters, why do you feel like people will write more if given the opportunity? I am looking over the feedback that I have and it seems to range from 6 words (maybe 50 characters) to something more in depth. I do agree the ability to have more than 140 characters available would be a good thing but if someone doesn't use the system in a meaningful way the amount of characters doesn't matter.

 

Because the fact that there isn't enough space to clearly communicate what happened in a trade that was completed, but with bumps in the road, is inhibiting those who actually want to use the system correctly. Sure, not everybody is going to magically start giving more details, but it will at least give all those who are trying to make the system more effective the opportunity to express how the pieces of the trade led them to give a positive, neutral or negative rating. Then, hopefully, the habit will spread once more traders look at people's feedback history and see the amount of detail others have gone into. Also, the key is to make it so that the user can't see the feedback their trade partner has left for them until they themselves leave feedback because the character limit isn't the only problem. The other problem is people fearing retaliatory feedback if they're the first to put something even the slightest bit negative in the text box even if they're giving a positive or neutral rating. You can't force people to give proper feedback, but you can at least give those that are trying to leave proper feedback a better template to do so in the hopes that others will follow suit.

 

My argument for why the feedback system doesn't work (sorry if I repeat what has already been said, tl;dr) is that people on the site are often too forgiving. If a bad beer trader thread is created, and the staff or mods agree with the creation of such a thread, there should be no possible way to give positive feedback. Also, I think that we should open up comments on beer trading threads again, but pending your trader history (i.e. 2 trades should't mean you have full access to commenting, since you don;t have much experience). Ultimately, it comes down to something that BA as a whole cannot help unless its users start using it to its intended purpose, which is to eliminate bad traders and promote the good ones.

Cheers fellas

 

Allowing just five comments (maybe with 100 character min to avoid less helpful comments), or only people with 20 or 30+ feedback to comment would be helpful!

 

They did try this (more or less) and it still didn't work. Lots of "Great trader here, hook him up!" even from "veterans"

 

I like that the comments are turned off. So happy I dont have to see all the trolling and bitching anymore. If you're off crickets work fine. The only thing I wish we could bring back is the ability to tag traders. Theres so much volume on this site its nice to be able to tag a user you know is looking for the posted beers as its impossible to look through every post