End of Year Site Updates

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by Todd, Dec 30, 2021.

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  1. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,564) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Check out: Beer Activity/Status Updates

    ###

    First, I'd like to thank those of you who left feedback in the Last Rated/Active Column Added to Beer Lists and Proposed Updates to Top Rated Beer Lists threads (and the mod team in Discord). Lots of solid thoughts and ideas! And lots of crossover discussions, so I'll address updates for both in this thread.

    Second, we haven't made any major updates like this since the before times. And a lot has changed since, and there's no need to get into all of that, but many of these updates are long overdue and the core goal is to help improve discoverability and usability for all site users and site visitors. I also tried to apply as much of your feedback as possible, as well as a few improvements of my own.

    Beers:
    • Active (on BeerAdvocate) = a beer that's been rated or added within the last two years.
    • Inactive (on BeerAdvocate) = a beer that hasn't been rated in over two years or has been reported as discontinued. These beers can still be rated, but will remain inactive.
    • Inactive and retired beers are now one and referred to as simply: inactive. Like retired beers, inactive beers aren't ranked and won't appear on top rated beer lists.
    • We now tag any beer that hasn't been rated in over two years as inactive. Requires a mod edit to become active again, but only if the beer still in production.
    • As always, if a beer is no longer in production (discontinued), please propose an edit so mods can tag it as inactive. And vice versa. We need your ongoing help. Thanks! (Caveat: If an inactive beer is tagged as active again, it must be recently rated or it'll be auto-tagged as inactive again.)
    • Removed the "Availability" (year-round, rotating/seasonal, one-off) field. It's become irrelevant, overcomplicated, and inconsistently used for reasons already discussed.
    Beer Styles Lists:
    • (Beer) "Name" column is first and sorted alphabetically/diacritically again by default.
    • Moved the "Last Active" column.
    Brewery Lists:
    • (Beer) "Name" column is first and sorted alphabetically/diacritically again by default.
    • Moved the "Last Active" column.
    • Removed "Retired" tab, replaced with "Inactive" tab (see General notes above).
    • Last active dates for active beers under the "All" tab are now green.
    • Added a "New" tab to highlight beers that were added under the brewery within the last 6 months.
    • ICYMI: I added anchor links on the tabs to reduce scrolling.
    Top Rated Lists:
    • Only active beers are eligible to be ranked.
    • Simplified the weighted ranking system. Basically, I brought it back to its original bayesian formula. Back in 2019, we tweaked it in anticipation of the app being launched, which would've no doubt resulted a ton more rating activity. But that didn't happen, ratings have declined during the pandemic, and the weighted ranking system has felt it since.
    • No change to the minimum number of ratings (10) required to be ranked/given a BA Score, but there's going to be significant changes to the top lists once weighted rankings are updated due to reverting the bayesian formula.
    Notes:
    • All code changes are live.
    • Rankings, top rated lists, and other stats haven't updated yet and will take some time to process.
    • We'll be auto-deactivating a ton of inactive beers over the next 24 hours. Until then, some of these beers will appear as active still.
    • Thanks for your patience.
    That's it for now. Looking forward to letting these updates settle in, reviewing everything in the new year, and dropping some new lists (like Beers of Yore and Worst Beers in the World) in the very near future too.

    In the meantime, please continue to drop your feedback here and report any bugs.

    Thanks, everyone! :beers:
     
  2. Rug

    Rug Meyvn (1,467) Aug 20, 2018 Massachusetts
    Society Trader

    Liking a lot of these updates Todd. Unrelated update suggestion that someone brought up recently for the forums, maybe replace the general "Like" button with several "Reaction" buttons? Not hugely important but it could cause better engagement. Also, is the app idea completely out the window or are there plans to bring it back eventually? I know it would be a lot of work but I'd love to see it
     
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  3. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,564) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Thanks. Me too. We'll see what people think with the new weighted ranks kick in. :wink:
    We have a massive upgrade on deck for next years, and the newest version of the forum supports reactions.
    It's definitely not out the window, but we've got the the upgrade to work on first.
     
    eppCOS, beergoot, Bitterbill and 8 others like this.
  4. Rug

    Rug Meyvn (1,467) Aug 20, 2018 Massachusetts
    Society Trader

    Happy to hear all of that!
     
  5. officerbill

    officerbill Champion (889) Feb 9, 2019 New York
    Society Trader

    Since you brought it up, any progress on the app?
     
  6. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,564) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

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  7. officerbill

    officerbill Champion (889) Feb 9, 2019 New York
    Society Trader

  8. papposilenus

    papposilenus Poo-Bah (1,901) Jun 21, 2014 New Hampshire
    Society

    And here I am. Lonely, unloved, unvalidated.
     
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  9. cryptichead

    cryptichead Poo-Bah (1,709) Jul 3, 2014 Illinois
    Society Trader

    The "New" sort option is great. Love the updates. Keep them coming
     
    FBarber, Rug and Todd like this.
  10. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,564) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    I think those in favor of 5, will the happy with 10 using the original bayesian formula once the update occurs. But we'll see where things land...
     
  11. papposilenus

    papposilenus Poo-Bah (1,901) Jun 21, 2014 New Hampshire
    Society

    10 was definitely the right direction. I'm just a whiny user.
     
  12. cyclonece09

    cyclonece09 Poo-Bah (2,376) Aug 5, 2008 Wisconsin
    Society

    Nice work on keeping the site fresh @Todd and mod team.
     
  13. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,564) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Update: all beers that are considered Inactive under the new criteria have been processed. We're talking over 220,000 beers that haven't been rated in over two years. This included a lot of beers from closed breweries and beers that were discontinued long ago, but never updated on the site. Massive cleanup. Long overdue.

    The system will continue to process new Inactive beers daily, and the mod team will continue to handle any reports for discontinued beers as needed.
     
  14. Bhubbard34

    Bhubbard34 Aspirant (262) Mar 4, 2016 Pennsylvania
    Trader


    ☹️ The one thing most people agreed they didn’t want to happen….ughh here’s to starting over, or maybe just giving up
     
    SadMachine likes this.
  15. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,564) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Most people (maybe?) didn't want me to change the minimum from 10 to 5. It's still 10 and I clearly explained why we need to revert to the original bayesian formula.
     
    beergoot and Rug like this.
  16. Bhubbard34

    Bhubbard34 Aspirant (262) Mar 4, 2016 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    I do like the change to just active/inactive btw…less confusing then one off, rotational…etc.

    could you shed some light on the major difference between the Bayesian formula and the current formula being used to determine top lists? Thanks!
     
    beergoot likes this.
  17. cavedave

    cavedave Poo-Bah (3,051) Mar 12, 2009 New York
    Society Trader

    Good job, well done! Looking forward to the massive upgrade! Cheers!
     
    beergoot, ChicagoJ, Rug and 2 others like this.
  18. CBlack85

    CBlack85 Champion (825) Jul 12, 2009 South Carolina
    Trader

    I'm liking the direction you guys are going. Good to see that the site is staying fresh.
     
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  19. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,564) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Sure, and those who think that 10 is too low will get a kick out of this...

    The minimum (from 2019 until this update) was basically dynamic. It was the average number of ratings across all beers with 10 or more ratings. Much higher than 10, but we applied it to any beer with 10 or more ratings. It was around 27 across all beers, and varied across style datasets. This would've been fine if rating activity landed where we anticipated, but given everything that I already explained (plus everything else that's changed), leaving it as is would make it impossible for smaller brewers to ever break the lists and get noticed. It was basically a mistake, broken, and increasingly becoming stagnant.

    Now, smaller brewers will still have to compete with brewers who release hundreds of one-offs a year, as well as highly rated beers with hundreds/thousands of ratings, but if the beer is damn good, and enough people agree, it has a damn good chance of getting some national attention. We're back to the days when a highly rated beer with a lower number of ratings could bust into a list and disrupt things. I missed those days.

    Anyway, we'll see where things land...
     
    AlcahueteJ, Scrapss, beergoot and 9 others like this.
  20. Bhubbard34

    Bhubbard34 Aspirant (262) Mar 4, 2016 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    Cool! Thanks, and can’t wait to see the new lists once updated
     
    Todd likes this.
  21. cjgiant

    cjgiant Poo-Bah (5,782) Jul 13, 2013 District of Columbia
    Society

    Hey, @Todd - followed much of the other threads loosely, and missed any suggestion like this if it existed: for those who want more stable lists, might a static, historical copy of the lists be created every so often (i.e. once a year) and made available?

    People trying to complete a list can choose to use the list from “end of 2021” for instance. Also, users can see the changes year over year, if they care, without using any of those cached page websites.
     
  22. mdaschaf

    mdaschaf Poo-Bah (2,902) Mar 28, 2010 Indiana
    Society Trader

    Does this apply to all lists? Top 250/US/State etc? I have noticed a few in my state's top 100 (Indiana) that are marked as inactive, but still exist on the list. Thanks!
     
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  23. Chuckdiesel24

    Chuckdiesel24 Meyvn (1,488) Jul 6, 2016 Illinois
    Trader

    Interesting - I'd wondered if that's what you had done at the time of that change. Will be interesting to see where the numbers fall when the formula change kicks in.
     
    Todd likes this.
  24. gatornation

    gatornation Poo-Bah (9,635) Apr 18, 2007 Minnesota
    Society Trader

    Anyway it has been mentioned before by others , I also appreciated you @Todd listening, explaining, and trying/implementing to make changes on behalf of the site we all enjoy.. Looking forward to 2022! Thanks.
     
  25. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,564) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    I'd be more than happy to explore this in the new year.
     
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  26. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,564) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    The weighted ranks haven't been applied yet.
     
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  27. paulish

    paulish Poo-Bah (2,339) Feb 2, 2014 New York
    Society Trader

    It is so painfully for me to see all rankings after last updates. I need to find a new strategy for choosing a beer which I must try.
     
  28. Bhubbard34

    Bhubbard34 Aspirant (262) Mar 4, 2016 Pennsylvania
    Trader

    This
     
  29. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,564) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Update: As a couple of you have discovered, the weighted ranks have been applied early this morning. Overall, and now that we've inactivated over 220,000 beers that have been rated in over two years and the bayesian formula has been fixed, it's very reflective of the current rating userbase's focus and trends.
     
  30. champ103

    champ103 Poo-Bah (5,230) Sep 3, 2007 Texas
    Society

    Side note: If anybody reading like the Bros or moderators. I'm not a fan at the moment, of the Active/New/Inactive tabs. I had to check three tabs to make sure Play Like a Pirate was already added. After my review, its still listed as inactive, I'm sure it takes time to update, or maybe I have to send in an edit request? This has always been a rotating release, and cause there isn't a large number of people reviewing in the Houston area, there is only one rating and my review. This is just going to lead to duplicate listings, as people aren't going to go through each tab. Just my rumblings on this, carry on.

    I do very much like the Last Active date by the reviews though.

    https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/54216/?view=beers&show=inactive#lists
     
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  31. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,564) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Moved this as had absolutely nothing to do with New Beer Weekend #76.

    This isn't a bug and is working as designed. If a beer tagged as inactive is still being brewed, it needs to be reported for the mod team for review, who will then determine if it needs to be made active again. This is how the active tag has always worked.

    The new caveat to this is that it needs to be rated within the last two years, otherwise it'll just be tagged as inactive again.
     
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  32. champ103

    champ103 Poo-Bah (5,230) Sep 3, 2007 Texas
    Society

    So you just essentially retired anything that didn't have any recent reviews? Like I said, there is not a big reviewing community around Houston, unless there is a reason to retire something (IE, someone knows its no longer being brewed, or was added as Limited, with no recent reviews I get that), I'm not a fan of that. I can't go to all the breweries in Houston and make edits :slight_smile: There are a lot here that are still being brewed, just don't have any ratings.

    Here is another example, basically everything here is still being made on a rotating basis, many have been available within the last 6 months. This is another Houston brewery called Bailson, but there are not a lot of reviews and I don't want to really make an edit for all these that I know are still being made.
    https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/50448/?view=beers&show=inactive#lists
     
  33. cjgiant

    cjgiant Poo-Bah (5,782) Jul 13, 2013 District of Columbia
    Society

    Initial question without research myself: does active tab not include new? That seems an odd choice if so.

    Secondly, I agree it would be nice if a review would automatically re-activate a beer, though then there is the question of people reviewing aged beers. I'm not sure if there's a good answer (to include possible technical difficulties).

    Lastly, and the point of my post, I've found perusing the alphabetical list that pops up (well below the new beer form) when you put in a beer name is a good sanity check. Since I've become far less interested in adding beers to those breweries producing "too many new beers" - it works for me without too much scrolling.
     
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  34. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,564) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Beers are no longer "retired." They're either active (recently rated/added and still brewed) or inactive (not recently rated or no longer in production).

    On a side note, the vast majority of beers being produced and entered today are one-offs.
     
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  35. cryptichead

    cryptichead Poo-Bah (1,709) Jul 3, 2014 Illinois
    Society Trader

    To the above points, I do think it makes sense that if an inactive beer gers rated that it should automatically get reverted to Active. If it's truly retired then it will just become automatically Inactive again in due time
     
  36. zid

    zid Poo-Bah (1,671) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    Society Trader

    Can either of you elaborate on the issues you have?
     
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  37. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,564) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    If we applied this, that beer would be eligible to be ranked. So, if someone were to rate a beer that hasn't been in production for 20 years, it would get ranked and show up on lists again until it goes another two years of not getting rated or gets reported as being inactive.

    The active/inactive tag has always represented if the beer is still in production. The beer's last activity simply represents the last time the beer was rated (active or not).
     
  38. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (5,619) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Moderator Society Trader

    The changes resulted in turnover in the top 250 list.
     
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  39. champ103

    champ103 Poo-Bah (5,230) Sep 3, 2007 Texas
    Society

    Three beers from Bailson in Houston that are currently being made, and on tap at the brewery now, have been made throughout the year, and are beers that I have had within the last month. The complete opposite of Inactive, but because there are no recent reviews, will stay inactive? There are many more examples of this.

    https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/50448/302089/
    https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/50448/302090/
    https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/50448/313316/

    That makes no sense at all to me.
     
  40. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,564) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Again, they're either "active" (recently rated/added and still brewed) or "inactive" (not recently rated or no longer in production). The brewery beer lists aren't meant to be a what's currently on tap menu system, although that could be a fun tab to add one day.
     
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