It's high time that we update Beer Styles!

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by Todd, Jun 21, 2020.

  1. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,031) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society

    It's been nearly two years since we've updated our Beer Styles, so I think it's high time for another round of updates.

    First, I'm looking for feedback from users who want to help me continue to expand and evolve our listing of styles. If you think there are two many styles or that we should consolidate styles, then this thread isn't for you and I ask that you not make it about that.

    Second, I've reviewed feedback from the last update and gathered most of the suggestions. Here are style that were the most requested:
    • American India Pale Lager (IPL)
    • American Kettle Sour
    • American Pastry Stout
    • American Pilsner
    • English Golden Ale
    • New England Imperial India Pale Ale (NEIIPA)
    • New England Pale Ale (NEPA)
    • Milkshake India Pale Ale (MIPA)
    • Radler / Shandy
    And here are other user suggestions for consideration:
    • American Kettle Sour with Fruit
    • Asian Lager
    • Belgian Grisette
    • Dutch Joppenbier
    • Dutch Koyt
    • German Adambier
    • German Dampfbier
    • German Kottbusser
    • German Leichtbier
    • German Lichtenhainer
    • German Steinbier
    • German Zoigl
    • Kentucky Common
    • Polish Grodziskie (Grätzer)
    Any others? Let me know.

    Finally, I plan on staying on top of Beer Styles going forward by creating a style council with quarterly reviews. More on this later...

    In the meantime, thanks in advance for your help.
     
  2. EmperorBevis

    EmperorBevis Poo-Bah (6,262) Sep 25, 2011 England
    Moderator Society

    • American India Pale Lager (IPL)
    • American Pastry Stout
    • English Golden Ale
    • New England Imperial India Pale Ale (NEIIPA)
    • Milkshake India Pale Ale (MIPA)
    • Radler / Shandy
    All very much in my opinion been a bit of an issue not being styled, but I would also venture coffee stouts & imperial coffee stouts and international pales & IPAs for those brewed with Australian/Japanese/New Zealand hops.
     
  3. Skeeter17

    Skeeter17 Aspirant (244) Dec 13, 2016 Washington
    Society Trader

    Are you suggesting breaking down Pales and IPAs based on the region the hops were grown? That seems too complex. I do like the idea of international versions though.
     
  4. morimech

    morimech Poo-Bah (3,808) Nov 6, 2006 Minnesota
    Society

    I do not think there needs to be two separate listings for American Kettle Sour. And who is going to edit all of those out of the Berliner Weiss listings? I think Radler/Shandy would be a good addition. Wasn't there an American Pilsner and American Imperial Pilsner listing back in the day? And Milkshake IPA is an abomination that should not even exist. I do not think any of the more esoteric styles need a listing. Kentucky Common and Grodziskie had a surge a couple years back but that has faded. But if you have a bunch of people on the site that want these styles listed, go for it.
     
  5. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (3,564) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Moderator Society Trader

    Fantastic! Really excited for these changes. For the ones you plan on adding, I think they are all much needed and excellent choices.

    As for the ones under consideration, I think they also should be added. I am especially excited about the prospect of the addition of the Grodziskie, Lichtenhainer, Zoigl, and grisette. I know they are kind of obscure (well not the grisette), but they also are very hard to fit into other styles.

    I have one additional style suggestion to add in there - Czech Dark lagers. These really don't neatly fall into any of the other categories they are usually added under such as schwarzbier, euro dark lager or dunkels. They are a clear style in the Czech Republic and surrounding areas, so why not add it as a style here.
     
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  6. Urk1127

    Urk1127 Meyvn (1,379) Jul 2, 2014 New Jersey

    Are there enough examples to warrant the Hellesbock?
     
  7. Urk1127

    Urk1127 Meyvn (1,379) Jul 2, 2014 New Jersey

    Also double post sorry. This is all very awesome
     
  8. JLK7299

    JLK7299 Meyvn (1,199) Apr 21, 2016 North Carolina
    Society Trader

    Funny you bring this up. I added a beer yesterday that the brewery called a French Saison but the only one listed was Belgian Saison.

    I put the difference in the notes. I’ve done this in the past when unable to find the style the brewery wrote on the can/bottle.
     
  9. morimech

    morimech Poo-Bah (3,808) Nov 6, 2006 Minnesota
    Society

    I thought it use to be listed as Maibock/Helles Bock a few years ago but I could be mistaken.
     
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  10. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (3,564) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Moderator Society Trader

    Yea, that should be classified under the maibock listing.
    https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/styles/33/
     
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  11. acurtis

    acurtis Poo-Bah (3,350) Sep 27, 2010 New Jersey
    Society Trader

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  12. Urk1127

    Urk1127 Meyvn (1,379) Jul 2, 2014 New Jersey

    One more post then I’m done. Just a nerd here. Any thought on styles that aren’t around anymore just as a nod to them. Paterbier. Pre prohibition styles. Burton ales. Etc. I’m sure there are others.
     
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  13. beersampler6

    beersampler6 Poo-Bah (1,785) Apr 4, 2018 Michigan
    Society Trader

    I definitely agree with these two. Too many NE imperial IPAs get lumped into the “regular” imperial IPA category when they’re just too distinct and different.

    And radlers belong in their own category since they’re so unlike any other genre of beer.
     
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  14. paulish

    paulish Poo-Bah (2,039) Feb 2, 2014 New York
    Society Trader

    Double Milk Stout
     
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  15. MNAle

    MNAle Poo-Bah (1,829) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota
    Society

    I'd favor "flavored" stouts, not limiting it to just coffee.
     
  16. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (3,564) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Moderator Society Trader

    Wouldn't that be covered by the "pastry stout" style?
     
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  17. Sound_Explorer

    Sound_Explorer Poo-Bah (1,841) Dec 29, 2013 Washington
    Society

    Would it be too nitpicky to add Golden Stout? Seen a few more of those the past few months than I ever have. Maybe too niche yet.
     
  18. rudzud

    rudzud Poo-Bah (7,098) Apr 28, 2010 Massachusetts
    Society Trader

    Back with it was simply 'Saison/Farmhouse' that would catch Arthur no problem.

    IPL has been a long time coming considering how long Jack's Abby has been around for. I don't know how I feel about 'pastry stout' considering the amount of random crap that gets thrown in to stouts now and the designation of that as opposed to it simply just being a stout or imperial stout (unless denoted by the brewery).
    I think Todd you'll need to have strict definitions on what makes what for each style. I can envision a wave of new england IPAs being added as 'milkshake ipas' just because they're hazy, as opposed to having lactose.
    Does Imperial Milk Stout have a listing? If not it should considering the push that style is getting right now.
    Also, different between 'English Golden Ale' and "American Golden Ale' ? Why not just simply go with 'Golden Ale'
     
  19. EmperorBevis

    EmperorBevis Poo-Bah (6,262) Sep 25, 2011 England
    Moderator Society

    No, there are ales that blend hops of different country origins & even though that would really appeal to my stat obsessed mind that’s not the intention of my request.
    It’s just that there are Pales & IPAs that just taste & feel dramatically different to US or U.K. that another option is required and International sounds a bit classier than ‘other’ lol.
     
  20. MNAle

    MNAle Poo-Bah (1,829) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota
    Society

    Coffee + pastry would not cover all the different flavoring additives being used, would it?
     
  21. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (3,564) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Moderator Society Trader

    Personally Im hoping that one goes the way of the brut IPA.
     
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  22. Roguer

    Roguer Poo-Bah (4,914) Mar 25, 2013 Georgia
    Moderator Society Trader

    Love it! I suspect figuring out if a beer belongs in imperial stout, pastry stout, milk stout, etc. might get confusing. Will pastry stout include pretty much all non-base beer flavorings, or is there some other qualifier? Will milkshake IPA include fruited and/or sour IPAs, or is lactose a requirement? Would any hazy IPA with lactose added be shifted from NEIPA to milkshake IPA, or is there some other qualifier?

    There's no perfect way to break down the variety in the craft stout scene, so I think this is definitely an improvement. I personally would prefer a couple additional stout styles, in addition to pastry stout - most prominently, coffee stout/porter.

    Is there an option for flavored/pastry brown ale, as well? The flavor bombs from Funky Buddha et al bear very little resemblance to a more classic brown ale. They're delicious, but they feel super out of place, simply because the brewer chose to use a brown ale as a base instead of a stout.
     
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  23. morimech

    morimech Poo-Bah (3,808) Nov 6, 2006 Minnesota
    Society

    Italian Pilsner is a thing now.
     
  24. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (3,564) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Moderator Society Trader

    Maybe I don't understand the style, but to me pastry stout is any stout that has a bunch of additives in it regardless of what they are.
     
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  25. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (3,564) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Moderator Society Trader

    @honkey :joy:
     
  26. Luscious_Malfoy

    Luscious_Malfoy Poo-Bah (2,579) Oct 5, 2016 Illinois
    Society Trader

    if you put the description of the beer in the notes there should be zero need for a pastry stout addition to styles. put in the existing stout options based on ABV.
     
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  27. rudzud

    rudzud Poo-Bah (7,098) Apr 28, 2010 Massachusetts
    Society Trader

    Here's a 'french golden ale'...think that should just be called "golden ale" and then in the style descriptor it could just be mentioned how yeasts/hops can different. [​IMG]
     
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  28. rudzud

    rudzud Poo-Bah (7,098) Apr 28, 2010 Massachusetts
    Society Trader

    This. Just because someone throws candy bars in a beer doesn't change the fact that it is in fact a stout. No need to over complicate things. It's a stout. Was a lactose added? Okay, it's a milk stout then.
     
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  29. thuey

    thuey Disciple (321) Nov 13, 2015 California

    Two styles that are very recent & trendy that aren't being mentioned...

    • Sour IPA (some, but not all contain lactose. some not all contain fruit)
    • Smoothie Ale - alcoholic jamba juice really
     
  30. honkey

    honkey Disciple (318) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Brewery Trader

    Nah, people are just confused by the German Pils guidelines being poorly written.
     
  31. RochefortChris

    RochefortChris Poo-Bah (1,540) Oct 2, 2012 North Carolina
    Society Trader

    I would like to see:
    Belgian Golden Strong Ale and Belgian Blond Ale. Belgian strong pale ale seems to be a catch all
    Pre-prohibition lager
    Czech dark lagers

    Perhaps do away with American adjunct lager, it's essentially the same thing as an American light lager

    In regards to adding the kettle souring category, many American brewers make either goses and Berliners weisses using the kettle sour method, maybe you can add a fruited and non-fruited category for goses and Berliners. Naming a category American kettle sour seems like a catch all for anything that is sour whether or not the brewer actually kettle soured

    Lastly, a barrel aged category would be welcome too, maybe a BA stout, barleywine since those are most common as well as a category for any other style that may be barrel aged
     
    #31 RochefortChris, Jun 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2020
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  32. Urk1127

    Urk1127 Meyvn (1,379) Jul 2, 2014 New Jersey

    Italian pilsner is definitely because what differentiates it is that it is just like your regulation German pils but to be Italian style it is dry hopped with European hops. If it is dry hopped with anything else it would not fall under “Italian”


    Can an American IPL dry hop with euro hops yes so there’s the line but to my understanding the above is the specifics.
     
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  33. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (3,564) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Moderator Society Trader

    no, they are not the same thing at all.
     
  34. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (3,564) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Moderator Society Trader

    So, what about German pilsners that are dry hopping their pilsner? My understanding is that dry hopping pilsners is not exclusive to Italian breweries.
     
  35. MNAle

    MNAle Poo-Bah (1,829) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota
    Society

    Except that lactose is not required, since the style name is "English Sweet / Milk Stout", and a number of beers are included that have no lactose.
     
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  36. Urk1127

    Urk1127 Meyvn (1,379) Jul 2, 2014 New Jersey

    I gotchu. Maybe it was a back in the day type thing? I’m not sure of any German beers that are dry hopped. I’m sure there are though.

    I love this shit truly
     
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  37. MNAle

    MNAle Poo-Bah (1,829) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota
    Society

    However you describe the "other" stout styles, traditional, non-flavored, non-BA imperial stouts deserve their own category.
     
  38. RochefortChris

    RochefortChris Poo-Bah (1,540) Oct 2, 2012 North Carolina
    Society Trader

    How, many light lagers use adjuncts like corn and rice hulls
     
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  39. MNAle

    MNAle Poo-Bah (1,829) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota
    Society

    • American India Pale Lager (IPL)
    • American Pilsner
    • New England Imperial India Pale Ale (NEIIPA)
    • New England Pale Ale (NEPA)
    I agree with these.

    The others (besides stouts, about which I have already commented) I have no strong opinions on one way or the other.
     
  40. REVZEB

    REVZEB Poo-Bah (7,192) Mar 28, 2013 Illinois
    Society

    Got to distinguish the different types of saison please. Mixed culture/soured very different drinking experience from traditional