My Plan for Second Batch

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by mfowler314, Feb 7, 2016.

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  1. mfowler314

    mfowler314 Devotee (375) Aug 12, 2015 New York

    This is a follow on to my first thread on getting started brewing and brewing my first batch: http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/my-plan-for-starting-homebrewing.372019/

    So the results of my first batch sit in bottles in the closet silently waiting for the day when they can be consumed. I think all went well and am eager for those bottles to age enough to drink - but I will be patient and give them the time they deserve to become all they can be. But in the mean time I'm scheming about the plans for my second batch! First batch was 1 gallon from a kit and my second batch will be 2 gallons from a web-posted recipe - as an engineer by profession it makes sense to me to carefully moving forward with only a few changes in process at a time. So I am bumping up to 2 gallons and picking a recipe that has only a few differences from what I've done already. Naturally I have some questions that I'm sure the wonderful folks here will be able to answer!

    Brew Kettle: the one I have when filled with 2G has about 2.75" of space to the top. Is this big enough to do a 2G batch or should I get a bigger kettle? To end up with 2G at the end I have to start with more than 2G in the pot (or top off at some point). I want to make sure I have enough room so I don't have a boil over. Could I start with a bit over 2G and then once some of it boils off top off with some additional water towards the end of the boil? Maybe with 15 minutes left? I would have the top off water boiling in a smaller pot. Thoughts?

    Carboy: I'll be buying a 3G carboy so I think I'm good there.

    Auto-Siphon: The one I have is a mini siphon and was barely long enough to reach into the bottom of the 1G carboy. So I think I need to get one of the bigger ones.

    Ingredients: I've got my sights set on an Irish Red Ale recipe that is on the AHA website (http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/irish-red-ale/). I figure if it is on the AHA site it can't be bad! I have a few questions about this. Here are the ingredients as listed for a 5G batch:

    4.25 lb Briess Golden Light Dry Malt Extract
    1.0 lb Briess 10L Caramel Malt
    3 oz Briess Extra Special Malt
    2 oz Briess Roasted Barley
    0.5 lb Honey
    2.0 oz E.K. Goldings, 4.75% alpha acid (60 minutes)
    0.5 oz E.K. Goldings, 4.75% aplha acid (15 minutes)

    To convert amounts for my 2G batch I should multiply these amounts by 2/5 = 0.4, right?

    I think I get most if not all of this at Doc's Homebrew, which is near where I work (http://www.docsbrew.com/). But I didn't see that they have the Briess Extra Special Malt - should I get that elsewhere or is there something they have that I could sub in? Can I use just any honey or is there some that is special for brewing?

    Yeast: The yeast called for in the recipe is:
    1 Vial White Labs WLP004 Irish Ale or Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale Yeast

    How do I adjust that for my 2G batch? This is probably the biggest change from my first batch, for which I just poured in half a dry yeast packet. So I need some guidance here on what I should do!!

    Priming: The recipes calls for
    1.25 cups Briess Golden Light dry malt extract (priming sugar)

    I know that they are saying to use the DME for priming but does that mean that I just take 1.25 cups of DME and put it in my bottling bucket? This is confusing. I've read about making a solution using priming sugar and putting that in the bottling bucket. I need some guidance here!

    Process: Here is what the recipe states:
    Steep grains in one gallon of 150º F water for 20 minutes. Remove grains and sparge with 1 gallon of 170º F water. Stir in extract and honey then bring to a boil. Add first hop addition. Boil for 45 minutes then add second hop addition. Boil 15 minutes more, then add to fermenter filled with 3 gallons of cold water (top-up to 5 gallons if necessary). When temperature drops below 75º F, pitch yeast and aerate well. Ferment at ale temperature for two weeks. When fermentation is complete, bottle with 1.25 cups of Briess Golden Light dry malt extract or siphon into sanitized party pigs with 0.25-0.33 cups of Briess Golden Light dry malt extract in each. If you are kegging, prime with 0.55 cups of Briess Golden Light dry malt extract or force carbonate. Fermentation time: 2 weeks at 65ºF-68 ºF

    Most all of that makes sense to me except the bit about "Remove grains and sparge with..." bit. In my first batch I just put the specialty grains in a little bag and steeped them for 20 minutes then pulled the bag out... no sparging. I don't know how to do that sparging step so please enlighten me! I'm also not sure on the preparing the yeast for pitching ... so guidance is needed there too!

    Whew... that was a lot of stuff for you to read through and I how it doesn't end up as a tl;dr!!

    Thanks in advance for all your help!
     
    #1 mfowler314, Feb 7, 2016
  2. StupidlyBrave

    StupidlyBrave Zealot (507) Jan 2, 2009 Pennsylvania

    More experienced brewers can chime in here, but in my limited experience - I think you're making it harder than it could be.

    For steeping grains, recipe advice varies. I introduce the grains at about 150 and then turn the burner off at 170. I steep for 20 minutes and let the bag drain - I don't sparge, nor do I squeeze. Some recipes advise to introduce the grains immediately and steep for a finite amount of time. This saves fuel, but I am really only focused on max temp and time.

    I'm concerned about a 2gal batch in a 3 gal carboy. Is that too much head space? Maybe you should make a 2.5gal batch by boiling as much volume as you can get away with and then topping off with cooled, sterilized water to make 2.5 gal.

    For yeast pitch rate, I use Beersmith - but these calculations are available for free on several sites, notably mrmalty. Very generally, the cell count needed "for a 5 gallon batch" is built in to the unit size of the yeast. But please do the arithmetic here so you can see when it is clearly wrong - in particular when age of the yeast is factored in.

    For bottle conditioning, the proper co2 volume is more important than the fuel that gets it there. I use corn sugar.

    Enjoy your brew. It seems like you're off to a good start. For what it is worth, I found this to be helpful - http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/02/11-mistakes-every-new-homebrewer-makes.html
     
    #2 StupidlyBrave, Feb 7, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2016
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  3. PapaGoose03

    PapaGoose03 Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,057) May 30, 2005 Michigan
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    I'm going to insert answers in bold into your post below.

     
    #3 PapaGoose03, Feb 7, 2016
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  4. mfowler314

    mfowler314 Devotee (375) Aug 12, 2015 New York

    Thanks @Mothergoose03! I'll get a bigger kettle. I'll have to do some reading up on the yeast prep stuff as well as the priming sugar stuff!

    I also need to get a scale to measure my ingredients - so carboy, kettle and scale will be my big purchases needed to move forward.

    Any comments on the concern raised about 3G carboy having too much headspace for a 2G batch? I think @VikeMan gave a rule of thumb on that in my other thread so I'll have to go back and check that.

    Thanks!
     
    #4 mfowler314, Feb 7, 2016
  5. mfowler314

    mfowler314 Devotee (375) Aug 12, 2015 New York

    I just found the quote about a headspace rule from @VikeMan in my previous thread:

    The wording "biggest contemplated batch size" seems to indicate that you can do smaller batch sizes. With a 3G carboy this rule says I could go up to 3/1.3 = 2.3G... but I'mm guessing doing a 2G batch would be fine as well.
     
    #5 mfowler314, Feb 7, 2016
  6. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Yes. 2 gallons would be okay.
     
    #6 VikeMan, Feb 7, 2016
  7. inchrisin

    inchrisin Pooh-Bah (2,013) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah

    I see the number 30% or 33% for headspace thrown around sometimes. If you don't have enough head space you blow off yeast/beer that you should otherwise be drinking. You also lose the healthiest yeast of your crop. Your pitch count will change and so will your beer. Minimally. You have more mess to clean up. It really depends on the gravity of the beer, the fermentation temperature, and the yeast you use, among other things. Sometimes you can get away with much less headspace. Other times it seems like the yeast are just begging to get out of the fermenter. A 6.5 gallon fermenter usually holds 5 gallons of fermentation at bay.

    I don't see any downsides to having a fermenter that is too big. I'd be perfectly comfortable fermenting a 1 gal batch of beer in a standard 5 or 6 gallon carboy. The fermenation will drive out all of the air in the fermenter at the beginning of fermentation.

    Ways you can do 2 gallons of beer in a 2.75 gallon stockpot:

    http://www.northernbrewer.com/fermcap-s-1-oz Fermcap does an excellent job of holding boils at bay.

    You can break your boil up into two separate kettles and add them together at the end.

    Other beginning brewers make a concentrated beer and add spring water/RO/non-chlorinated water to the batch at the end to get the correct gravity. Flavor would suffer a little and you'll use more hops to get your desired levels of IBUs. There are ways around bigger kettles if you have storage space issues or funding issues. That said, I give everyone a hard time for making tiny batches. It's a waste of time. :wink:
     
    #7 inchrisin, Feb 7, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2016
  8. mfowler314

    mfowler314 Devotee (375) Aug 12, 2015 New York

    From someone with that avatar I would expect to hear "You're gonna need to go to bigger batches"!

    The 1G batch I just did *was* too small but I'm thinking that 2G batches will be for me the right balance between the amount of work and the yield. At this point I'd rather brew more often and with more variety so I can get more practice and brewing 5G batches that often would just swamp me with more beer than I know what to do with. (I know... most would say there is no such thing).

    Thanks for all the info.... I really appreciate all the feedback.
     
    #8 mfowler314, Feb 7, 2016
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  9. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    I would put the honey in at the end of boil, or even in the fermenter, to preserve some aromatics from the honey.
     
    #9 hopfenunmaltz, Feb 7, 2016
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  10. wspscott

    wspscott Pooh-Bah (1,958) May 25, 2006 Kentucky
    Pooh-Bah

    That recipe looks reasonable, but when you adjust to a 2 gallon batch, you are going to have lots of tiny amounts of grains. For example less than an ounce of Roasted Barley and a couple ounces of honey. Nothing wrong with small amounts, but you will want/need a good scale.

    I would just use sugar to bottle, no point in using DME from what I have read.
     
    #10 wspscott, Feb 7, 2016
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  11. mfowler314

    mfowler314 Devotee (375) Aug 12, 2015 New York

    Yes... the digital scale I can get at the LHBS near where I work can measure in 0.1 oz increments on one setting and 1g increments on another setting. I think that should be sufficient.
     
    #11 mfowler314, Feb 7, 2016
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  12. Buck89

    Buck89 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,782) Feb 7, 2015 Tennessee
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    +1 to not using DME. I know this has been discussed many times here, but I think there is a slight taste difference in my PAs/IPAs. I was careless and scorched the DME once when boiling for priming, and it was definitely noticeable after conditioning. I prefer table sugar. Cheap also.
     
    #12 Buck89, Feb 7, 2016
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  13. StupidlyBrave

    StupidlyBrave Zealot (507) Jan 2, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Are you sure the 2oz bittering hop is not a typo? It seems like 1oz @ 60 min would be more appropriate for this style of ale.
     
    #13 StupidlyBrave, Feb 7, 2016
  14. mfowler314

    mfowler314 Devotee (375) Aug 12, 2015 New York

    No... I'm not sure at all! I'm totally new at this so I'm taking the recipe as-is. I checked the web site listing and what I put in the post is what is on the web site. Anyone else want to comment?
     
    #14 mfowler314, Feb 7, 2016
  15. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

    It's around 40ibu and the beer will be sweet. Use less bittering and it will be more sweet. I don't think it's too hoppy.

    There isn't a direct substitute for Extra Special Roast. 1/2 Special Roast and 1/2 Dark British Crystal 150L might be close.
     
    #15 Brew_Betty, Feb 7, 2016
  16. StupidlyBrave

    StupidlyBrave Zealot (507) Jan 2, 2009 Pennsylvania

    The webpage suggests this recipe is 22 IBU, about where an Irish Red should be. It also lists OG of 1.05, which I find a little suspect as well. Shouldn't that be closer to 1.04?

    I dunno, things are not adding up for me here.
     
    #16 StupidlyBrave, Feb 7, 2016
  17. mfowler314

    mfowler314 Devotee (375) Aug 12, 2015 New York

    I think I figured out why Brew_Betty thought it would be around 40 IBU but the website lists 22 IBU. Bear in mind I am totally new to this, having only brewed once and that was from an ingredient kit. The posted recipe says to start with 1G then sparge with 1G and then add 3G of cold water to the fermentor. So that means those hops are going into only 2 gallons and then diluted by an additional 3 gallons. I have no experience with computing things about recipes but none the less I tried out the recipe calculator at www.brewersfriend.com and think I put everything into it correctly (it allows specifying boil size and final batch size so I put in 2G and 5G, respectively). The results were

    OG = 1.043
    FG = 1.012
    ABV = 4.04%
    IBU = 24.18

    So I think that all seems reasonable for an Irish Red Ale.

    Then I changed the entry in the calculator to be 5G boil and 5G batch and then adjusted the amount of hops to get back to this IBU - while keeping the same rough individual components of IBU the same (i.e., the tool shows how many IBU from each of the two hop additions so I tried to keep those pretty close to the original.)

    Then I multiplied everything by 2/5 to scale to my 2G batch size with a 2G boil. Had to switch to the mode of entering the hops amounts in grams and learned that at the 2G level it is hard to get exactly the same IBU. But being an engineer I'm thinking that getting within 1 oor 2 IBUs is close enough, right? I mean.... I'm not trying to get an exact copy of some specific beer... I just want a good Irish Red that I've brewed myself! Nonetheless, I did get pretty close. OG, FG, and ABV were exactly the same after scaling by 2/5. After scaling and twiddling the hop amounts a bit (13g for the first addition and 3g for the second) I get IBU of 24.55.

    So... does this look reasonable? The scale I'm getting can resolve to 1 g... and I think one can actually physically isolate 3g of hop pellets - the 1G kit I just brewed had 3.5g packets of hops so that is what makes me think I can do this.

    This was fun!! But am I on the right track? Or will the gurus here say "Ahhh... Young grasshopper...." and then tell me I'm all wrong???
     
    #17 mfowler314, Feb 9, 2016
  18. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

    Yes, if the recipe was planning for a big dilution that explains the ibu difference. I was't calculating for a big dilution.

    Your adjustments sound reasonable if you want the ibu to be in the mid 20s. There is no need to duplicate the recipe exactly. You won't be able to tell the difference of +/- 2ibu.
     
    #18 Brew_Betty, Feb 9, 2016
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  19. mfowler314

    mfowler314 Devotee (375) Aug 12, 2015 New York

    Today I went to Doc's Homebrew Supplies, which is near where I work. WAY better than what I have available near where I live -- and the owner really knows his stuff and was SO helpful. Unlike the experience I had at the one near my house:

    Got a 5G brew kettle, an Escali digital scale, and a regular sized auto siphon. The LHBS near my house had none of those things. Those things together with the 3G carboy they did have at the LHBS near my house gives me everything I need to do my next batch with a batch size of 2G.

    I did not buy my ingredients today at Doc's but will get those next week and will probably brew next weekend. Doc's seems to have LOTS of ingredients and all the stuff I'll need so that is now my go-to place.
     
    #19 mfowler314, Feb 12, 2016
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  20. Conrad99

    Conrad99 Initiate (0) Nov 21, 2015 California

    Can't help much since I'm so new at this but I really enjoy reading your posts @mfowler314

    Keep updating!
     
    #20 Conrad99, Feb 22, 2016
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