Using Kveik to make Quick "Lagers"

I am confident that you will see things differently here (cheers to that!), but I don't REALLY believe there is such a thing as "saison yeast." The modern day classic saison is brewed with a famous house yeast... just like all the beers from that brewer barring their pils. Home brewers and other pros who are looking for the same vibe might try derivatives of that house yeast... which will be marketed to them as "saison yeast." I'll leave it at that.

 

As 'predicted', I completely disagree with you.

Cheers!

 

"And since I don't know the brewers/owners nor do I have any personal experience with that part of the world, I'm stuck relying on the presentation of the brewers themselves."

Precisely. That's where the majority of us land that are interested in learning style/regional differences but don't get to travel to those parts. I appreciate brewers that care enough to draw a distinction between "this is a ________ style ________ and "this is our intepretation of a _________ style _________". That signals to me they either tried to brew to the expected style or they wanted to take a style and do something a little different. I can deal with that.

 

I got a marketing email from a brewer today. They were advertising the release of their "South Pacific style Pils" - a beer made with pilsner malt, Czech yeast and New Zealand Teiheke hops. So is this a beer made in a South Pacific style or with a South Pacific ingredient? Perhaps the brewer considers it to be both. The same brewer also sells a "South Pacific Lager" that's brewed with Maris Otter malt, German yeast and New Zealand Nelson Sauvin hops.

The takeaway is the origin of where the hops are grown (but not necessarily how they are bred) is enough to drive the identity of the beer beyond all else due to the result of living in such a hop-centric culture. I understand the desire to market beers this way - I'm not silly... I just find the architecture somewhat silly.

@JackHorzempa

 

Also, beer competitions reinforce this when they tend to organize hop-forward categories by hop origin (see the BA’s adding New Zealand-Style Pale Ale and IPA in addition to Australian-Style categories).

 

so much nonsense could be avoided if we were to stop considering beer a competition....

 

Chris, you may already be aware of this but in the latest version of the BJCP style guidelines (2021) at the end there is an Appendix entitled Local Styles and there is a category X5. New Zealand Pilsner.

Some snippets from this category:

“History: Largely defined by the original created at Emerson’s Brewery in the mid-1990s, New Zealand Pilsner has expanded in character as the varieties of New Zealand hops have expanded in number and popularity.

Ingredients: New Zealand hop varieties, such as Motueka, Riwake, Nelson Sauvin, often with Pacific Jade for bittering. Other new world varieties from Australia or the US may be used, if they have similar characteristics. Pale base malts, Pilsner or pale types, perhaps with a small percentage of wheat malt.”

And:

“Style Comparison: Compared to a German Pils, not as crisp and dry in the finish with a softer, maltier presentation and a fuller body. Compared to a Czech Premium Pale Lager, less malt complexity, a cleaner fermentation. Similar in balance to a Kolsch or British Golden Ale, but with a hoppier aroma. Compared to any of these German styles, showcasing New Zealand hop varieties with tropical, citrusy, fruity, grassy, characteristics, often with a white wine-like character.”

To large measure what ‘defines’ a Pilsner as being a New Zealand Pilsner is the unique character associated with New Zealand hops (e.g., tropical, citrusy, fruity,…).

FWIW the BJCP has not included a category for Italian Pilsner (yet).

Cheers!

 

As long as breweries demonstrate a preference for the marketing value of a medal over the professional development value of unbiased sensory feedback, the competition aspect (and requisite categorization) will continue.

 

I’m ok with this, I would also have a decent idea of what I’d be buying.

Just don’t brew a “Juicy IPA” but label it as a “Kölsch” just because you happened to use a Kölsch yeast and Pils malt.

Admittedly I’m seeing things like this less and less these days as brewer’s have come to embrace more traditional styles.

 

IMO you have little worry here. Why would a brewery label their NEIPA a Kölsch? That would result in decreased sales.

Cheers!

 

Check out the number one Kölsch on this site.

https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/30654/142418/

Notes: This amplified version of Sprang, our hoppy welcome to Spring, is a kölsch inspired ale, cool fermented and dosed heavily with Nelson Sauvin. Lower fermentation temperature slows the yeast's metabolism and provides balance by gently subduing super-fruity esters and spicy phenols. Big Sprang is medium bodied with dank aromatics of earthy evergreen, passion fruit, and faint doughy malt. Flavors of juicy concord grape, mango, and herbaceous white wine interweave with cracker-crisp, pilsner malt character and minimal bitterness. The finish is dry with a lasting touch of grain.

MALT: Pilsner, Valley Danko Rye, Dextrine, Dextrose

HOPS: Nelson Sauvin, Goldings

 

Here’s some pics of both Sprang and Big Sprang…

 

What are the sales figures for the Sprang beers as compared to Melcher Street, Scaled Up, etc.?

Cheers!

 

The Trillium groupies have struck a sad note by raising this beer to this level. And the brewery has no business bastardizing a 'protected' style. Now get off my protected lawn!!

 

Sprang is not very good

 

I don't have those sales figures. I actually think those would be difficult to obtain for any brewery of their size.

But my point was, some breweries do have misleading labels. I would assume it sells just fine since the most recent review for Big Sprang was this past Monday. And the owner, JC himself, added this beer to the system in 2014. So it's in their regular rotation.

Sprang was also added by JC in 2014, and was recently reviewed on April 8th.

I obviously can't ask the Trillium sales team, but I imagine if not labeling this as a "juicy IPA" was negatively affecting sales, they would have changed the name in the last 8 years.

Side note: Big Sprang is the fifth highest rated Kölsch on Untappd. Sprang is listed as a New England Pale Ale on Untappd. Odd.

 

That would be helpful since numbers are more compelling than thoughts/guessing.

No disagreement here. I just started a new thread with a poll using Sprang/Big Sprang as examples.

Who the heck really knows that the marketing folks are thinking here. Sales numbers would be 'better' here.

Cheers!