Advice on a bad trader? @Troutmen

Retaliatory feedback is an automatic ban, so you do not have to worry about that. If you have given them substantial time to reply (which it looks like you have) start a Bad Trader thread.

 

As mentioned, it's listed under the trading rules that giving retaliatory feedback can result in banning so you should not let this worry you in any way.

http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/beer-trading-rules-tips.229/

• You may be banned without warning for:
  • Buying or selling alcohol.
  • Trolling or dishonest activity.
  • Having multiple accounts.
  • Posting personal information.
  • Abusing the Beer Trading Feedback System. Examples:
    • Giving retaliatory feedback.
    • Basing your okay/negative feedback on the lack of extras; unless extras were part of the agreed upon trade.
    • Leaving fake feedback.

 

I'm assuming you haven't shipped any beer yet, if I'm mistaken please let me know. With that said, I'm not sure that I'd drop negative feedback just yet, but that's my opinion. However, not replying for over a week and going private with his profile warrants something. Maybe you could tag your trade partner here so we can get his side of the story and perhaps assist in getting this deal done.

 

I am assuming you used the trade system and have an accepted trade? This is debatable, but if a trade is accepted and the other person backs out, unless they have a good explanation, in my book they are a bad trader.

The fact that he hasn't responded to your messages and set profile to private is pretty ominous.

 

There has been a lot of debate recently about whether this labels someone a bad trader or not. Some say that if no beer was shipped, its not harm no foul. Other say that once you accept a trade, you're on the hook for the trade, or at least need to convince your partner to mutually cancel. I'm of the belief that there is no use for the trade system or the feedback system if negative feedback is only used when someone completely screws someone out of beer or if you can back out of an agreed upon trade with no ramifications. I for one, would like to be able to see in a trader's feedback score if they have ever backed out of a trade. If all of this turns out to be true, and he backed out of this trade because he received a better offer, should he have a 100% positive feedback score? That's an easy "No" for me and I think everyone should be aware of something like that.

I'm waiting to hear the other side of this guys story, if there is one.

 

@blue-dream @F2brewers This should probably be moved to the bad traders section with @Troutmen in the title.

 

My advice: if you don't hear from him, leave feedback for him as a Bad Trader.

As noted, you have nothing to fear with regards to retaliatory feedback, and I tend to agree with @JStampler that "bad" trading involves far more than simply stealing beer. That is clearly the worst kind of bad trading (rewaxed bottles of KBBS notwithstanding), but going radio silent and actively concealing one's status after an agreed-upon trade is also sketchy.

People being people, I'm of the belief that not all stolen beer culprits intentionally set out to steal beer from the beginning. I have no doubt that some instances of stolen beer are people who originally had every intention of making good on their end, but something happened--life event, short on money, whatever--and then they made the bad decision to simply avoid the problem rather than coming clean and rectifying it. There are just too many hoops to jump through nowadays between the monitoring the mods do to stop previous scammers from rejoining and the moderation that goes on and the rules of thumb (new traders ship first) for it to be easy for intentional scam artists.

I don't bring that up to excuse the bad traders, but rather to point out that if you accept the notion that a lot of people who end up stealing beer don't set out to do that in the first place, then things like going silent after an agreed-upon deal and other sketchy behaviors can act as clues to how certain people might act if they ever find themselves in an unexpected situation. And as such, those clues are just as good a reason to report someone as a bad trader as any.

After all, getting a bad feedback isn't a death sentence. You can still trade, although your ability to do so will be hindered and sufficient penance will be required to build up the community's trust. But look at it this way: people who steal beer get banned. We need a level between Perfect 100% Trader and Disappeareded Former Trader--seeing a few sub-100% scores for people who exhibit bad trading behaviors is that level.

 

@Wehler - I think there are a few questions that might be helpful if you could add details.

What was the agreed to trade (what for what), and when (dates)?
Did both sides say yes and accept a trade in the system?
Has either party shipped anything yet, and if not, when were you supposed to ship?

I think the above is pretty important context for many people reading this, and it would help to really lay out exactly what was agreed, if there was an accepted trade, and if any beer has shipped out yet.

Hopefully this can all be worked out, but having more details will if nothing else let others come to their own conclusions

 

Thanks for adding the details - to me this feels like a situation that justifies negative feedback, with the caveat that any feedback needs to clearly state what happened (trade agreed and accepted, trader stopped communicating and backed out, no bottles shipped)

Obviously, that is just my opinion, but I would want this sort of information and feedback captured in the feedback system - this is exactly what it is for. I don't think this is enough to warrant a bad trader thread / ban or anything like that since you aren't out any beer, but absolutely this deserves negative feedback.

Edit - and I wouldn't give a second thought to retaliatory feedback - the ban hammer drops at close to the speed of light on people who do that (and their retaliatory feedback gets deleted).

 

I agree with everything you said in both posts except the bolded. I think this certainly warrants a bad trader thread because if everything is true, which until we hear otherwise there's no reason to believe it isn't, that's exactly what this guy is, a bad trader. He's not a thief or a con artist but he's 100% someone I would never work with. I agree that there shouldn't be a ban because maybe this can be something he learns from, but the thread should stay. The good thing about these bad trader threads is that all of the information is inside the thread and people can decide for themselves after reading it whether they would trade with him or not. Any time I've ever had a trade conversation with someone with any negative feedback I come to this board and search their name to see if I can find their story so I can make up my mind on whether or not to move forward and give the guy another shot.

 

@Wehler - totally your call on what to do, but to be honest, waiting never seems to do the trick on these things I'm afraid.

How many messages have you sent? Over how many days now? It is clear that they have seen your message as they came on to change their profile settings. I hate to say it, but you might be delaying the inevitable. People don't just sit around on the fence for beers like this, and frankly, I cannot think of a single scenario where you have the time to come on this site and mess around with your privacy settings, but don't have time to send a quick note to update a trade partner.

Totally your call, but I think you have done enough waiting, and might want to think about ripping the band-aid off on this one. From what you say, you have given this person 3 or 4 chances already.

It doesn't sound like the trade you agreed is off, so you would probably be better off investing your time in finding a reliable trade partner to do the deal with - I mean, would you trust them now if they came on and wanted to complete the deal? Feels like to me that trust has already been violated...

 

I agree completely, but the website alas does not (4th rule down):
http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/how-to-create-a-bad-trader-thread.258091/

I have seen a few threads like this come and go, and there isn't really a consensus on what the mods will ultimately do (if anything) but the chances are the thread will stand as a reference for others (totally up to the mods). I agree, it sucks, and the negative feedback is absolutely appropriate, but my understanding / hunch is these threads are reserved for people who outright dick people out of beer and steal. If the trade isn't resolved in these threads the ban hammer usually drops, and this isn't really one of those cases.

Firmly worded negative feedback should do the trick here - I mean, if I ever saw someone who wasn't 100% and had feedback that they had backed out of an agreed trade then that is enough for me to decide not to deal with them.

 

Done.

Link to this thread posted on his profile page as well.

 

Unfortunately he has limited who can see his profile page.

Just had an idea for @Todd , maybe a condition of being a trader is you can't hide your profile.

 

@Todd I'm curious...What useful purpose do private profiles serve? Nobody needs to include sensitive info such as age, location, gender, name or email. Mine is fairly uninformative though I don't know why since I freely share the info with damned near anyone. (Old lady from Iowa here.)