Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #24 - Mash Temperature

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, Feb 12, 2015.

?

Choose a single infusion (sacch rest) mash temperature.

Poll closed Feb 14, 2015.
  1. 147F

    4.7%
  2. 148F

    9.3%
  3. 149F

    18.6%
  4. 150F

    39.5%
  5. 151F

    2.3%
  6. 152F

    9.3%
  7. 153F

    9.3%
  8. 154F

    2.3%
  9. 155F

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. 156F

    4.7%
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  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    The previous poll (#23) determined that the mash will be single infusion, no mashout recommended.

    This poll (#24) will determine the recommended mash temperature. If you want a mash temperature not listed, write it in. (After mash temperature is determined, mash length will be next up.)

    When this poll is done, I will look at the data a few different ways to determine the central tendency. It may or may not be as simple as a plurality would indicate. There may or may not be a runoff. It all depends on the data.

    I recommend you think about this in terms of not only your personal preferences, but also in the context of the recipe so far. Design the best beer you can, given what's already been decided. Resist the urge to try to steer the recipe back toward a beer that might be impossible. Also, I strongly suspect many folks have not made a beer quite like this recipe (so far) before, so please discuss the options at length.

    This poll will be open for 48 hours.

    (For those who don't know what I'm talking about, see these threads for the first two beers we did (and the bazillion ensuing polls and the final recipes...
    http://beeradvocate.com/community/threads/the-averagely-perfect-american-ipa-project.59552/
    http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/averagely-perfect-american-stout-poll-1-abv.131209/ )

    Issues with methodology? Take 'em to beermail please.

    The Averagely Perfect Saison so far...

    Batch Size: 5 Gallons
    ABV: 5.7%
    OG: 1.045
    FG: 1.002
    Single Infusion Mash (Temp TBD), no Mashout recommended

    Grain Bill:
    Belgian Pilsner Malt (68%)
    Flaked Wheat (17%)
    Vienna malt (15%)


    Yeasts:
    WLP565/Wyeast 3724 at beginning of fermentation
    WLP644, 0.5 Liter Recommended, added to primary when beer/wort reaches gravity of 1.033
     
  2. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

  3. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (1,820) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Society Trader

    Are we gonna hit 1.002 fg with a mash temp of 154? Im not so sure. In my experience with 644 I have never gone below 1.002 with a mash temp of 149.
     
    dmtaylor likes this.
  4. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    People...I really think we need to take a step back and really consider what we've chosen as the "Brett" strain. I feel like 644, and people's experience with it, may be completely farking this recipe.

    I think the evidence is compelling enough that 644 isn't Brett...and we need take this into consideration.

    If anyone hasn't seen this yet...this is another argument against Brett, aside from the fact that Omega has already removed it from their labeling:

    http://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.com/2014/12/brett-trois-riddle-wrapped-in-mystery.html
     
    LakesideBrewing and jbakajust1 like this.
  5. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    For all the science that tells us this strain is genetically not Brett, there is something that makes it unique and made others think it behaved like Brett and looked like Brett. It may very well be a hitherto unknown strain of Saccharomyces. Knowing that it is not Brett does not inform us how to brew with it. We must rely on experiential learning of the collective to inform our brewing.
     
  6. epic1856

    epic1856 Initiate (0) Aug 11, 2006 California

    I went with 150. I would rather lean on the side of caution and mash low, than take a change and having the wort not finish low enough.
     
    jlordi12 and Naugled like this.
  7. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    How did you use 644 in the past?

    I'm not sure what 154 will do either, but making the assumption that 644 will drop the gravity a little bit beyond what 3724 does, mashing at 150 seems like a recipe for something lower than 1.002. Of course, the wheat changes things up as well. I'm not committed to 154, but I think 150 is too low.
     
  8. Naugled

    Naugled Defender (640) Sep 25, 2007 New York

    This one will be interesting. I chose 147F because that's what I have to hit (or lower, I've mashed saisons in the low 140's before) on my system to get a very fermentable wort. I consider 150-152F the middle for my system. I go higher and lower around that point. Like epic I prefer to err on the low side of the range for this.

    Everyone's system will be different. A 147F on my system might be 150F on someone else's system. It will depend on where in the mash you probe (middle, side, corner), is your probe calibrated, do you have a direct fire tun, HERMs, RIMs, how often do you stir, square or round? etc etc. I view this voting range as high, low or medium mash temp. I voted low.
     
    wspscott and PortLargo like this.
  9. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    Right, but does 644 act like Brett?

    So far I've seen posts claiming not to get below 1.002 with a mash temperature that should ensure extremely fermentable wort. Would another Brett strain act this way? I've also seen comments that claim 644 didn't age like they had expected from experience with other Brett strains.

    What I have seen, is the development of a recipe that was to include Brett...that seems as though it may not. And a bunch of people making voting decisions based on their experience with this, most likely, non-Brett addition.

    So, does 644 act like Brett because everyone thought it was Brett, and now attribute 644's character as Brett? Because it seems a strong possibility, to me, based on previous comments.
     
    #9 JohnSnowNW, Feb 12, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2015
  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,940) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Justin posted the below in the Brett poll thread:

    "I know right. What if all this is for nothing and as we get to the end of this project the announce that this strain is truly a wild Sacc strain and we have to do these polls again? I guess @VikeMan could just take all the ones that had a decent amount of votes in these threads and run them against each other."

    Cheers!
     
  11. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (1,820) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Society Trader

    I used brett brux trois with wlp saison 1. While it was bone dry I did get dinged in a comp for lack of body.
     
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  12. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    I never used it and don't know. 1.002 is pretty damn low to be complaining about the FG. It acts like Brett in as much as it has a flavor profile that sounds similar to Brett C, but that is the best I can tell you. I've always wanted to brew a beer with pineapply esters, so that's what I am hoping for in this one.

    If people are making decisions based on their understanding that this yeast strain may act like Brett brux or any other Brett strain, they are not thinking clearly about the situation. Brettanomyces is a genus, and within that genus, their might be all kinds of variability in characteristics. The fact that the strain appears to be a saccharomyces strain doesn't change this fact. If we had an averagely perfect beer poll and just said we will brew the beer with a Saccharomyces species, it would be pretty foolish to make assumptions about how the beer would turn out. It could be 3711, driving gravity to 1.000, it could be 3724, getting stuck at 1.028, it could be a hefe strain,etc. And that is just within S. cerevesiae. It could be a lager strain, champagne yeast, etc. The point I was trying to make is that there is not a wealth of information available about this yeast and we shouldn't assume much about it's behavior because it belongs to a particular genera, regardless of what the genera is.
     
  13. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,940) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    @pweis909, what you posted above is technically correct.

    It would be interesting to see what the majority of the BAs who are actively participating in the Saison with Brett threads are thinking/expecting in this regard.

    I am confident that the majority of homebrewers associate the word “Brett” with funky (i.e., horse blanket, barnyard, wet hay, etc.) vs. tropical fruit flavors. I am unsure what the homebrewers in these threads are expecting.

    Cheers!
     
  14. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Initiate (0) May 29, 2011 Florida

    Someone could always do a split batch of this 5/5 gallon and pitch Trois in one and something like Clausenii or Brux in the other.
     
    pweis909 and wspscott like this.
  15. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Initiate (0) May 29, 2011 Florida

    Or even better if someone could get a pitch of BSI Brett Drei from a local commercial brewery that orders from BSI. I'm sure they wouldn't mind adding that to an order of you paid upfront. Note: a 1 bbl pitch runs $90 ish, but that's basically 6 brews worth that is already grown up ... versus very low cell counts in WL vials.
     
  16. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I suppose it would be nice to know what the people who voted for 644 expected/wanted. You clearly want some pineapple esters, but were others more interested in the aged flavor Brett tends to impart?

    Personally, I was more interested the the funky aspects of an aged Brett brew, which it appears 644 may not impart. Just wondering if I'm the only one that expected/wanted this...and if any 644 voters did as well. Did people vote on a grain-bill that would complement these funky flavors...and such?
     
  17. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    I suspect all the Trois voters did so because it is hot and everyone is talking about it. I would much rather have some subtle funk complimenting the great spice and fruit character of the Dupont strain.
     
  18. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,940) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Peter (@pweis909), in all fairness most of us homebrewers mostly brew with Saccharomyces so the nuances of the various Brett strains is not something that the majority of us know. I think that Justin (@jbakajust1) nailed it with " I suspect all the Trois voters did so because it is hot and everyone is talking about it." I don't doubt that some BAs recognized that WLP644 equates to tropical fruit flavors vs. funky flavors like barnyard but I really think that most didn't.

    I suspect that this whole Saison with Brett effort has been an 'eye opening' exercise for many BAs.

    Cheers!

    Jack
     
  19. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    My Mr. Smartypants remark: I didn't invent google, by I've learned the basics.

    But as a genuine good dude, Jack, you deserve better than Mr. Smartypants: This is homebrewing, and people can brew whatever they like. I personally think it would be great if the recipe got brewed as is and got brewed with whatever tweaks people have in mind, like "what if we voted differently on poll # 5b?" We can talk about it until the sun comes up, but until people do some brewing, what we can learn has some limitations.
     
    JackHorzempa likes this.
  20. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,940) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Yep, I am anxious to hear how your Saison with WLP644 turns out.

    The beauty of homebrewing: brew the beers you like and brew them the way you like!!

    Cheers!
     
  21. CASK1

    CASK1 Aspirant (293) Jan 7, 2010 Florida

    Picked 148, since this beer has a rather high percent of specialty grain (only 68% base malt). It needs to be dry!!!
     
  22. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    I would describe neither Vienna malt nor wheat malt as a specialty grain.
     
  23. epic1856

    epic1856 Initiate (0) Aug 11, 2006 California

    As of this post (9 PM Pacific 2/12/15):
    Avg: 150
    Median: 150
    Mode: 150 (15 Votes)
    Adding Votes less than 150 = 14
    Adding votes over 150 = 9

    My Strawman Prediction:
    Win for 150 or at the least a runoff between 150 and 149 which for me would be a wash since I'm usually plus or minus 1 degree from my target mash temp.
     
    pweis909 and jbakajust1 like this.
  24. ChrisMyhre

    ChrisMyhre Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2013 Massachusetts

    I also think we'd be better off a little higher than 150 at least on my system. Voted 152.
     
  25. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Mean, Median, Mode, Game, Set, Match, 150F.
     
    dmtaylor likes this.
  26. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (223) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    If I had a nickel for every time.......

    When in doubt, 150 F. :slight_smile:
     
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