Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #48 - Water Poll Part 2

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, Mar 31, 2015.

?

Select a water profile type. (All numbers are in parts per million)

Poll closed Apr 2, 2015.
  1. Crisp Bitterness: 36 Ca, 0 Mg, 0 Na, 0 Cl, 86 SO4

    15.4%
  2. Leaning Crisp: 36 Ca, 0 Mg, 0 Na, 18 Cl, 61 SO4

    57.7%
  3. Balanced: 36 Ca, 0 Mg, 0 Na, 37 Cl, 36 SO4

    19.2%
  4. Leaning Malty: 36 Ca, 0 Mg, 0 Na, 50 Cl, 18 SO4

    7.7%
  5. Malty: 36 Ca, 0 Mg, 0 Na, 64 Cl, 0 SO4

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Extra Malty: 36 Ca, 0 Mg, 26 Na, 104 Cl, 0 SO4

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
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  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    Poll #47 determined that the overall water profile will be Moderately Hard (total hardness about 90 ppm, expressed as CaCO3 equivalent).

    This poll will present several plausible profiles that fit that description. Note: These profiles assume building from distilled/RO water. They would be impossible to build exactly from most tap water. It's understood that people will do what they want or need to do. And some will want some Magnesium (which I haven't offered, due to precious Calcium taking up the hardness). And etc. To that end, each of these potential profiles also has an accompanying description, like "Malty," of "Crisp Bitterness," etc. It's that description that will be in the final recipe. The ion ppm numbers will be provided only as an example in the recipe.

    This poll is straight plurality. If your choice is losing miserably, consider jumping to the next best choice.

    For those looking ahead, after this poll, I will publish the final recipes (pellet and leaf hop versions, and All Grain and Partial Mash versions).

    This poll will be open for 48 hours.

    (For those who don't know what I'm talking about, see these threads for the first two beers we did (and the bazillion ensuing polls and the final recipes...
    http://beeradvocate.com/community/threads/the-averagely-perfect-american-ipa-project.59552/
    http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/averagely-perfect-american-stout-poll-1-abv.131209/ )

    Issues with methodology? Take 'em to beermail please.

    The Averagely Perfect Saison so far...

    Batch Size: 5 Gallons
    ABV: 5.7%
    OG: 1.045
    FG: 1.002
    Mash Recommendation: Single Infusion @ 150F, 60 Minutes, no Mashout
    Assumed Mash Efficiency: 70%
    90 Minute Boil
    IBUs: 24
    Fermentation: Pitch at 68F, ramping up to 80F over 4-7 days

    Grain Bill:
    Belgian Pilsner Malt (68%)
    Flaked Wheat (17%)
    Vienna malt (15%)


    Water suggestion: Moderately Hard

    Yeasts:
    WLP565/Wyeast 3724 and WLP650, co-pitched [no starter for the Brett]

    Hops:
    60 Minutes - Saaz and Hallertau, approx. 15 IBUs, Split 50/50
    10 Minutes - 0.75 ounces Saaz , 0.75 ounces Hallertau
    Flameout/Whirlpool/Hopstand - 0.75 ounces Saaz, 0.75 ounces Hallertau
     
  2. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (223) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    All of the options are soft. You'll wish you had more calcium, chloride, AND sulfate than any of those options. I am sorry if I am too late and you hate me but it is my opinion.
     
  3. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    This comment made me do a double take. I looked at the previous poll and realized it was hardness, as in expressed in CaC03. I thought I was voting on 50ppm Ca, not 50 ppm of CaCO3. This got clarified in the poll sometime after I voted. Although 90 ppm CaCO3 was selected, it still only comes out to 36 ppm CaCO3. Now I got water remorse.
     
    dmtaylor likes this.
  4. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
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    Note correction, in bold.
     
  5. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    They are not soft. They are moderately hard, which is what people voted for. While there may be some wiggle room between usage of the two terms, 90 ppm as CaCO3 is classified as Moderately Hard by the US Geological Survey, which in my mind is pretty authoritative. At any rate, the numbers were stated in the previous poll.
     
  6. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (223) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    Okay. So, do the people at the US Geological Survey know a lot about brewing beer?
     
  7. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    No, but they do know a lot about classifying water. But please do provide a "brewing beer" authoritative source that classifies 90ppm as Soft rather than Moderately hard. I don't recall seeing one, but perhaps you have.

    I wouldn't necessarily say that best choice was made, in the sense that harder water would probably be better for a saison, but that doesn't change basic definitions.
     
  8. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (223) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

  9. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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  10. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (223) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    Of course you have read it. I should half-heartedly point out the relevant parts for you? Sure, why not...

    "Hardness in water is primarily due to the calcium and magnesium content of drinking water... low concentration of those ions provides soft water... Calcium is typically the principal ion creating hardness in water... The ideal range for calcium ion concentration in ales may be 50 to 100 ppm... A minimum concentration of 40 ppm calcium is recommended... The primary difficulties with brewing with very low calcium water is that yeast flocculation may be impaired and beerstone formation may affect equipment... The calcium content of brewing water should generally conform to the calcium content that the original yeast evolved to..."

    As I said before, you can decide for yourselves. I don't have a horse in this race. Just trying to help.
     
  11. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    What's that supposed to mean?

    When you express more than one opinion in a thread, and then throw in a supporting link, then yes, IMO you should point out the relevant part. Or at least say what point you are trying to support. If it's not too much trouble.

    Ah. You're reiterating that you think harder water would be better. Thanks. In this case (the saison), I happen to agree with you, but I will also say that 40 ppm is by no means a universal rule. Some terrific Pilsners, for example, have been made with much less. I thought maybe you were still arguing the definition of soft, moderately hard, etc., and thought you were providing the link to support that. Context is kind of important, even on the internet.
     
    jbakajust1 likes this.
  12. Mag00n

    Mag00n Initiate (0) Nov 21, 2008 New York

    Have you thought about putting a link to the previous poll on each successive poll? That way you have kind of a breadcrumbs to all the polls if someone was so inclined. Just a thought.
     
    VikeMan likes this.
  13. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    Here's a question, why didn't we decide on fermentation length? I think many people, including myself, will have little experience with Brett, and it may help to have a suggested timeline for completion.

    Obviously, the desired amount of Brett character will be somewhat subjective...
     
    #13 JohnSnowNW, Mar 31, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2015
  14. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    I agree, it's subjective. But also, this question would inevitably lead to kegging vs. bottling, how long to condition at cellar temps before chilling (if chilling at all), etc. Too much system/preference dependency. Plus...I think I have said many times (in other threads) that fermentation/conditioning is done when the yeast and taste buds say it's done, and not calendars, so I don't think I'll go back on that advice now.

    Having said all that, I would encourage discussion about the topic, which could give people a general idea about what to expect.
     
  15. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I can understand that, my question wasn't more of a "when will this be safe to bottle" or "when will the beer be drinkable", but rather when people should expect the Brett character that we had in mind when we decided to include the Brett in this recipe.

    Y'all with the know-how please commence discussion!
     
  16. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    Also, FEI, I'm brewing this tomorrow...so maybe the first to brew this?
     
  17. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    I would say when the FG is stable where we voted. My caveat is that the flavor needs to be where you want it. If kegging, you will want the beer to age to where the Brett character you want is present before drastically slowing the progression by putting it into the fridge/keezer. If bottling, you can do so at FG and age them in the cellar, allowing flavor drift over time and enjoyment of the beer at each stage stashing a couple bottles in the fridge when ready to enjoy. I personally bottle with Brett on my Saisons and cellar them so as to enjoy the progression. The two Saisons with Brett I kegged I wasn't as pleased with.
     
    JohnSnowNW and ChrisMyhre like this.
  18. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I have really been debating either kegging or bottling. What didn't you like about the kegged beers?

    I suppose I should also ask if you're bottling from the keg, or bottle priming?
     
  19. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    I would bottle prime. I keg everything, but found my Brett Saisons lacking. They just didn't have that robustness and complexity. Very one dimensional. The pressure from bottle conditioning and warmer temps really let the Brett shine on my bottled ones. Although I hate bottling I am almost exclusively going to bottle condition the bulk of my Saisons for the brewery. Some will see kegs, but mostly the ones served young w/o much additional Brett character (I say additional as I am fermenting with 100% Brett for all beers, Saisons get secondary strains at packaging).
     
  20. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    #20 VikeMan, Apr 2, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2015
  21. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    Hey VikeMan, once it is truly official, and you have some time to format, would you mind throwing these up in the recipe forum for easy access?
     
  22. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    That's where I put them.
     
  23. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
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    And that would be a good place to host the "how my ap saison came out" and related questions?
     
  24. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Good question.

    Esteemed Mods: should the "how my AP Saison turned out" thread be on the main forum or the recipe forum? Seems like the main forum might be better, since there are two different recipes (leaf and pellet hop versions), so the comments could stay in one place. And maybe a link to the thread from the recipe posts?
     
  25. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    HA! Hit the link Alice. Duh. My bad, carry on...
     
  26. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    I would put it into the main Homebrew Forum, not in the Recipe Forum.
     
    FATC1TY, pweis909 and VikeMan like this.
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